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Old 04-27-2009, 12:07 PM   #31
DaleDe
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Do you really want to see a word such as epube for the form,at of an eBook? Say it out loud to yourself. Personally, I think it's rather inappropriate. The easiest solution is to get Fictionwise to drop the nonsense about adding yet another DRM scheme to ePub.
I take it you really like a monopoly by the way you are promoting this. do you have stock in Adobe?

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Old 04-27-2009, 12:56 PM   #32
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[*]If they would do, they would side with the Pro-DRM-faction. This might be just too "politically charged" for them.
Yes I agree, and everyone save the (some) publishers/(some) authors belives DRM is evil and makes baby Jesus cry.
However I'd rather see a working DRM like DVDs than have what we have today, and ignoring DRM is just a naive attitude. IDPF should have addressed this when it created the ePUB standard especially if it was being touted as an Open format.


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[*]They did indeed, but made some doubtful decisions (eg. to include SVG support)
Well not really I can make an ePUB book that will not work on the SONY device. Now you can blame sony for that--and I wont disagree-- but you still have a perfectly legal ePUB that will not work on any device. That is not the case for LIT/MOBI/eReader.


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[*]What did you mean with "certifiable"? That ePub should become a certified standard according to another international organization for standardization (ISO, IETF, ..) or do you mean that IDPF should launch a public certification process?
Yea I guess, I was thinking more along the lines of POSIX, OpenGL, OMG, but I think that falls along the same line as ISO, IETF,IEEE.

The former just have tests to validate software and/or hardware to make sure one is compliant.

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This makes perfect sense: .epub for DRM-free, .epuba for Adobe DRM, .epube for eReader DRM, etcetera. It would be in FictionWise's interest to use .epube (say) because that reduces the confusion over a 2nd DRM scheme. They also have gone through this in spades with .pdb. The problem is that Adobe has already "squatted" on .epub for ePub with Adobe DRM.
Wallcraft you are a smart guy... and maybe I'm not as smart as I though I was because after reading this my head hurt.

I honestly believe an extensions solution would be a nightmare. I can honestly not imaging trying to explain this to anybody that is not technical in nature.

I understand where your coming from but instead of patching something that is broken I say fix what is broken.

ePUB v2.0 needs to come out and address the ePUB branding issues and DRM issues. A consumer should not have to worry about the source of where they bought the ePUB they should be able to buy an ePUB from any source and play it on any source that supports ePUB.

Just like a DVD.

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The problem is that Adobe has already "squatted" on .epub for ePub with Adobe DRM.
Yep that's smart business. What Adobe is trying to do is establish themselves as the defeacto standard for ePUB DRM. It was just as brilliant for them to kludge PDF and ePUB under the same DRM scheme. Now Adobe has a great marketing tool to say look at all the eBooks we have under DRM. Unfortunately it's at the consumer expense.

I can't blame Adobe that is just smart, and in the end it does not really mess up the consumer they still get what ultimately matters most to them content!

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Last edited by =X=; 04-27-2009 at 12:57 PM. Reason: Added some before author and publishers as I realize there are some good hearted pubs and authors. :)
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:57 PM   #33
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Actually, computers should stop assuming that "extension is everything". TIFFs and AVIs are containers with a single extension and lots of possible content, knowledgeable software knows (or should know) how to manage this, I don't see why it should be different with ePUB.

I agree it is going to be a problem for users if the same "name" is used for different incompatible DRMed formats, but it shouldn't be a problem for the software.
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:33 PM   #34
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IDPF should have addressed this when it created the ePUB standard especially if it was being touted as an Open format.
I disagree and think it's good that they didn't include any statement about DRM in their specifications. But i get your point and it's not neccessary that we share the same opinion.

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Well not really I can make an ePUB book that will not work on the SONY device. Now you can blame sony for that--and I wont disagree-- but you still have a perfectly legal ePUB that will not work on any device. That is not the case for LIT/MOBI/eReader.
You are right - but is it really the fault of the format? I don't think so. It seems that i've more technical reasons (point of view of a software developer) to criticize the ePub-specification. Despite that i think developers could implement a good and standard conforming implementation for ePub-reading software even if there are some features outlined in the specification which can be very hard to implement on mobile devices. Adobes (+Sonys) implementation isn't as good as it could/should be and i don't know any other useable implementation at the moment. We just need more ePub-reading software. LIT/Mobi had the same problems at the beginning - initially there weren't any other reading software available than those from Mobipocket (mobi) and Microsoft (lit).
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:03 PM   #35
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I disagree and think it's good that they didn't include any statement about DRM in their specifications. But i get your point and it's not neccessary that we share the same opinion.
Agreed

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You are right - but is it really the fault of the format? I don't think so. It seems that i've more technical reasons (point of view of a software developer) to criticize the ePub-specification.
Well as a SW developer for many years I've seen many proposed standards come and go. The best standards are those that are rigorous enough to allow consistency yet flexible enough for developers/hardware vendors to implement a cost effective solution.

ePUB today is too flexibility. SONY's file limitation should not have happened. The spec should have provided for these memory constrained devices or excluded them form supporting ePUB.


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Despite that i think developers could implement a good and standard conforming implementation for ePub-reading software even if there are some features outlined in the specification which can be very hard to implement on mobile devices. Adobes (+Sonys) implementation isn't as good as it could/should be and i don't know any other useable implementation at the moment. We just need more ePub-reading software. LIT/Mobi had the same problems at the beginning - initially there weren't any other reading software available than those from Mobipocket (mobi) and Microsoft (lit).
Right and that is what scares me. With MOBI/LIT one company had complete control of the clients developed, to ensure MOBI/LIT worked across whatever device was developed.

ePUB does not benefit from this and with a very loosely defined standard I see a bumpy road for ePUB.

I really want ePUB to succeed but fear without a conforming ePUB standard there will be many solutions of ePUB that will not work different devices.
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:09 PM   #36
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I take it you really like a monopoly by the way you are promoting this. do you have stock in Adobe?

Dale
It's just that we have enough issues with DRM as it is and a fairly tall tower of eBable. We don't need Fictionwise screwing with what could be the eBook standard and making it so confusing that it never does become the standard.
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:14 PM   #37
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Well not really I can make an ePUB book that will not work on the SONY device. Now you can blame sony for that--and I wont disagree-- but you still have a perfectly legal ePUB that will not work on any device. That is not the case for LIT/MOBI/eReader.
Actually, it is the case for Mobipocket. Some devices have an older version of Mobipocket Reader that will not work well or at all with current version Mobipocket files.
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:33 PM   #38
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Right and that is what scares me. With MOBI/LIT one company had complete control of the clients developed, to ensure MOBI/LIT worked across whatever device was developed.

ePUB does not benefit from this and with a very loosely defined standard I see a bumpy road for ePUB.

I really want ePUB to succeed but fear without a conforming ePUB standard there will be many solutions of ePUB that will not work different devices.
Actually EPUB is as loosely defined as XHTML+CSS which is plenty successfull. And the fact that there isn't one company guiding it's development is an advantage not otherwise. It will reach the level of maturity of MOBI (a much simpler format) far more quickly as a result. As for the 300K file limit that everyone keeps complaining about, it's really not an issue. It just requires tool support in epub creation tools.

As for DRM incompatibilities, DRM by its very nature has to be incompatible. If we had a DRM scheme was not incompatible across devices and software implementations, it would be like a PDF password.

DRM stands for Digital RIghts Management which means that publishers want to be able to manage what you are allowed to do with the book. If a DRM scheme allows a book to be used in many different software programs and devices, it is completely failing to provide any management.

As for the question of extensions, I think having one extension with various incompatible DRM schemes is an excellent thing. The time of ebooks and EPUB has come, nothing is going to stop them. This sort of craziness will hurt only one thig, DRM.
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:42 PM   #39
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Well as a SW developer for many years I've seen many proposed standards come and go. The best standards are those that are rigorous enough to allow consistency yet flexible enough for developers/hardware vendors to implement a cost effective solution.

ePUB today is too flexibility. SONY's file limitation should not have happened. The spec should have provided for these memory constrained devices or excluded them form supporting ePUB.
I would have to re-read the specification documents to discuss this further, but i guess you are right. What i don't get is why the sony developers didn't choose another way to solve the memory issues. They must have been very "uninspired"...

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ePUB does not benefit from this and with a very loosely defined standard I see a bumpy road for ePUB.

I really want ePUB to succeed but fear without a conforming ePUB standard there will be many solutions of ePUB that will not work different devices.
Yes, that's my worry too. I hope that the FBReader team will improve it's ePub-implementation and that a lot of other projects will add standard conforming (and well working) implementions soon.

PS: Sorry for my assumption that you aren't (or weren't) a sw developer...
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:02 PM   #40
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What i don't get is why the sony developers didn't choose another way to solve the memory issues. They must have been very "uninspired"...
IIRC it was Adobe that developed the epub reader software for the Sony, not Sony.
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:09 PM   #41
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IIRC it was Adobe that developed the epub reader software for the Sony, not Sony.
Until now i thought Sony did adapt the (at that time unofficial) mobile DE-SDK with Adobes help. Maybe i was wrong...
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:12 PM   #42
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:28 PM   #43
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As for the question of extensions, I think having one extension with various incompatible DRM schemes is an excellent thing. The time of ebooks and EPUB has come, nothing is going to stop them. This sort of craziness will hurt only one thig, DRM.
Well, maybe not "excellent" (at least not for consumers) but my thoughts are very similiar to yours.
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:30 PM   #44
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Actually, it is the case for Mobipocket. Some devices have an older version of Mobipocket Reader that will not work well or at all with current version Mobipocket files.
Yea that is not really the same thing. The issue your pointing out is due to obsolescence. That is going to happen as long as technology is involved. ... Right I mean the PRS-500 doesn't support ePUB

What I'm talking about is current solutions. SONY is not obsolete in fact it's the only eInk device that supports ePUB. Yet there are ePubs that will not work with SONY.

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Actually EPUB is as loosely defined as XHTML+CSS which is plenty successfull. And the fact that there isn't one company guiding it's development is an advantage not otherwise. It will reach the level of maturity of MOBI (a much simpler format) far more quickly as a result. As for the 300K file limit that everyone keeps complaining about, it's really not an issue. It just requires tool support in epub creation tools.
I think your not seeing my point, and I'll agree it's not too obvious. I just want one solution that works. I'm tired of dealing with all the different formats out there. I can't standardize on one format since often I can only finding certain books under MOBI/PDF/LIT/eReader/<your format here>.

I want ePUB to succeed esp since it has done a good job for the most part, but I find it failing in some key areas. Which leads to abuse from companies, the very nature of this post is an example.

What I'm gripping about is for the ePUB standard to fix this to prevent future abuse, or future misinterpretation of standards.

For me it's not so much SONY's 300KB file size limit that cause me concern, itt's the failed expectation that as long as I have an ePUB file I can read it on any ePUB device.

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I would have to re-read the specification documents to discuss this further, but i guess you are right. What i don't get is why the sony developers didn't choose another way to solve the memory issues. They must have been very "uninspired"...


Yes, that's my worry too. I hope that the FBReader team will improve it's ePub-implementation and that a lot of other projects will add standard conforming (and well working) implementions soon.

PS: Sorry for my assumption that you aren't (or weren't) a sw developer...
No worries this board is quite diverse message board.

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Old 04-27-2009, 06:33 PM   #45
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ePUB today is too flexibility.
With this I somewhat agree. The epub spec has too many sections that start with "can" and end with "don't have to". But as Sorotokin said in a thread here on mobileread, when you're creating a standard you can't just do what you think is best; there are politics involved. There are a lot of members in the IDPF, and some kind of consensus has to be reached.

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SONY's file limitation should not have happened. The spec should have provided for these memory constrained devices or excluded them form supporting ePUB.
This is silly. You can't just proclaim that all devices should parse content files of unlimited length because every device is memory constrained in some way. And yet you cannot pigeonhole the standard to 2007 and set arbitrary limits on content files. Ten years from now (probably a lot sooner) even embedded devices will have more than enough resources to parse any kind of epub file, so such limitations would be a hindrance.
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