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Old 04-04-2009, 02:52 PM   #61
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Every law is subject to false accusions; that's why we have courts, to determine whether the accusation that has been made against someone is true or false.
...except for when laws are specifically created to get around the court system...

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Yes, but across the pond, we believe in the accuser show some reasonable evidence that there is a crime and person x was involved before throwing the full weight of the state behind it. This is for the protection of people from unreasonable (and expensive) prosecution. I see no reason to throw that safeguard out the window for "ease of conviction".
yes, exactly.
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Old 04-04-2009, 02:53 PM   #62
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Depends on the circumstances. Let's say that you knew that a terrorist had knowledge which could allow you to prevent a terrorist attack that would kill thousands of people, and that the only way to obtain that information was through torture. Would torturing one person to prevent the deaths of 10,000 innocent people be morally justifyable? You decide.
Easy. It does NOT and will NEVER be justifiable. Tricking someone yes, pressuring somewhat(grey area), threatening(this is the one that would need to be justifiable), torture... NEVER.

We could just as well get slavery back and be done with it...

Think of it like this(and here I'm going on the assumption of NOT committing the act):
You are ACCUSED of stealing apples from a merchant.
The merchant says: I SUSPECT you stole something from me so to pay me back you will work for me for the next year without pay.
end of story this is what the law proposes.


Now consider this in a proper legal state:
You are ACCUSED of stealing apples from a merchant.
The merchant says: I SUSPECT you stole something from me but I can't prove it I will report you to the police
Police conduct an investigation and find out you did not commit this and in the process they find that someone else MIGHT have done it.
That someone else is brought in and the police question him then based on the information bring in the attorney and he does the paper work an the ASSUMPTION that the person did it.
The person is brought infront of a JUDGE and hears all sides of the story. He then decides based on the information presented if the person is GUILTY or NOT.
And even on that decision both parties may appeal.

See where this is heading? a) two step process vs b) multi step process...
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Old 04-04-2009, 02:57 PM   #63
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Permit me to ask you, then: if you do not accept logging of an IP address as prima facie evidence of illegal activities, what evidence would you accept?
When you go do some on-line banking does your bank rely on your IP address? Or do they use complicated, elaborate technical means like digital signatures, grid cards, hardware dongles that generate one-time unbreakable heavily encrypted hashes that prove that is is indeed you that makes that $9 payment for an e-book?

If IP address is such a perfect proof of who you are why are there so many internet related frauds, scams, stolen (and abused) credit card numbers?

As a network specialist I tell you, the IP address proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. You can use it as a starting point for further investigation, but not as an iron-clad proof!
Disconnecting somebody is too serious thing to base on such flimsy "evidence".
A log file from a computer can only be considered as a proof only when you adhere to a very rigorous procedures, and very special technical means to make sure that the evidence was not tampered with. Implementing even simple time stamp that is 100% reliable across all ISPs and "evidence" collecting "autorities" is complicated and expensive. Very expensive. And I doubt that MAFIAA will invest that kind of money when they have been collecting "evidence" with complete disregard to such things for courts.

I can produce hundreds of log files with YOUR IP address using plain text editor, I can produce very interesting screen shots showing YOUR IP address using a most primitive bitmap editor. And the best thing is, even if they catch me cheating, they can not do anything to me, because this is no court.
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:00 PM   #64
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(pokes head in the door wearing as much armor as he could wear to ask an innocent question)

If, instead, a law was passed that was reliable (not subject to possible false accusations) and protected people's privacy but was effective at detecting illegal file-sharing, would it have been acceptable? I realize that without the details of such a hypothetical law, it's hard to say anything at all. But I'm trying to find out how much of people's pretty boisterous objections are simply because it's a law designed to protect intellectual property rights for which you personally may or may not have any respect for.
If something like that could be made to work, then yes, very definitely so.

OK, so I'm not exactly enthralled with how copyright and IP(*) stand right now, but if we're assuming a world in which your law could work, then the issues around copyright etc could also be resolved.

(* Intellectual Property - clarification for geeks like me who automatically translate Ip as Internet Protocol )
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:01 PM   #65
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What happens with downloads through wi-fi hotspots in cafes, libraries etc that the public uses?
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:03 PM   #66
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I followed that (I'm french) and the worsts point of that law are:

- Forcing ISPs to install black boxes between the user and the net to help pinpoint illegal activities.
- Private companies (copyright owners like Sony or Universal) are given the right to access those black boxes logs to find offenders.
- As "it would no be feasible to go to trial for those kind of cases", the offending user can't be explained what is the offending file. Those private companies (copyright owners like Sony or Universal) doesn't have to disclose that to anyone. (Including government) One implication is that there is no recouse possible. (As there is nothing to judge)
- As it may not be possible for citizen to know how to secure their computer, they will be given the option to install a self-updating commercial "security software" that will monitor computer usage to try to block delinquent acts.

My understanding of computer networking is that:
- Those "black boxes" can (will) intercept any non encypted flow.
- Any recent filesharing protocol use or can use an encrypted protocol. (It's not that complicated)
- All there left is mail, IM, and internet surf.

- A work group will define how search engines and portals will have to alter their indexes to "get legal sites up" and "dig illegal content down"


Fun fact of that sad story: Head of ministry of culture claimed that the governement uses OpenOffice as its content filtering proxy and security firewall. (twice)
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:05 PM   #67
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What happens with downloads through wi-fi hotspots in cafes, libraries etc that the public uses?
Official answer: It will be so not convenient that you won't bother.

They actually tried to force open hotspot owners to use a whitelist of a thousand sites that are "of utmost importance of this nation culture".
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:05 PM   #68
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I followed that (I'm french) and the worsts point of that law are:

- Forcing ISPs to install black boxes between the user and the net to help pinpoint illegal activities.
- Private companies (copyright owners like Sony or Universal) are given the right to access those black boxes logs to find offenders.
- As "it would no be feasible to go to trial for those kind of cases", the offending user can't be explained what is the offending file. Those private companies (copyright owners like Sony or Universal) doesn't have to disclose that to anyone. (Including government) One implication is that there is no recouse possible. (As there is nothing to judge)
- As it may not be possible for citizen to know how to secure their computer, they will be given the option to install a self-updating commercial "security software" that will monitor computer usage to try to block delinquent acts.

My understanding of computer networking is that:
- Those "black boxes" can (will) intercept any non encypted flow.
- Any recent filesharing protocol use or can use an encrypted protocol. (It's not that complicated)
- All there left is mail, IM, and internet surf.

- A work group will define how search engines and portals will have to alter their indexes to "get legal sites up" and "dig illegal content down"
this is why i'm against this law.

Quote:
Fun fact of that sad story: Head of ministry of culture claimed that the governement uses OpenOffice as its content filtering proxy and security firewall. (twice)
and i'm supposed to trust people like this to make informed judgements about internet activity !!!
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:05 PM   #69
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When you go do some on-line banking does your bank rely on your IP address? Or do they use complicated, elaborate technical means like digital signatures, grid cards, hardware dongles that generate one-time unbreakable heavily encrypted hashes that prove that is is indeed you that makes that $9 payment for an e-book?

If IP address is such a perfect proof of who you are why are there so many internet related frauds, scams, stolen (and abused) credit card numbers?

As a network specialist I tell you, the IP address proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. You can use it as a starting point for further investigation, but not as an iron-clad proof!
Disconnecting somebody is too serious thing to base on such flimsy "evidence".
A log file from a computer can only be considered as a proof only when you adhere to a very rigorous procedures, and very special technical means to make sure that the evidence was not tampered with. Implementing even simple time stamp that is 100% reliable across all ISPs and "evidence" collecting "autorities" is complicated and expensive. Very expensive. And I doubt that MAFIAA will invest that kind of money when they have been collecting "evidence" with complete disregard to such things for courts.

I can produce hundreds of log files with YOUR IP address using plain text editor, I can produce very interesting screen shots showing YOUR IP address using a most primitive bitmap editor. And the best thing is, even if they catch me cheating, they can not do anything to me, because this is no court.
Not to mention that the IP address captured is going to be that of your router, and with dynamic IP addresses that means it's possible your IP address may end being one that was previously allocated to a filesharer.

And then there's things like IP address and MAC address spoofing...
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:08 PM   #70
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Not to mention that the IP address captured is going to be that of your router, and with dynamic IP addresses that means it's possible your IP address may end being one that was previously allocated to a filesharer.
Certainly, but the ISP has a record of what IP address was allocated to what user at a particular time, so the combination of IP address and a "timestamp" provides a unique identification of the user.
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:09 PM   #71
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Certainly, but the ISP has a record of what IP address was allocated to what user at a particular time, so the combination of IP address and a "timestamp" provides a unique identification of the user.
and what about spoofing ?
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:13 PM   #72
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and what about spoofing ?
Depends where you're doing your detection, doesn't it? I was under the impression that the law is going to require monitoring by the ISPs themselves. If they are monitoring the traffic within their own systems, is spoofing an issue? They know which user an IP packet is being delivered to, don't they? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that spoofing only affected logging at the "transmission" end of the connection as to which IP address it "thinks" it's talking to.
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:19 PM   #73
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Depends where you're doing your detection, doesn't it? I was under the impression that the law is going to require monitoring by the ISPs themselves. If they are monitoring the traffic within their own systems, is spoofing an issue? They know which user an IP packet is being delivered to, don't they? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that spoofing only affected logging at the "transmission" end of the connection as to which IP address it "thinks" it's talking to.
It can also spoof where the data packet has apparently come from - it's used in DDoS attacks to that end.
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:20 PM   #74
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That is the point of a court - to determine whether or not the person is guilty.
No.
The point of MAFIAA taking somebody to court is in USA to bankrupt him financially through attorney fees. They need to bully another tens of thousands people to "settle" (**) out of court.

(**) understand pay racketeering $5000.
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:22 PM   #75
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Looks like France is going to become a nation of hackers, as people acquire the skills they need to defend themselves from potentially false accusations.

I'm surprised their government think that's a good idea.
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