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Old 03-12-2009, 02:01 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty1024 View Post
Alex,

It's entirely obvious from your posting on this thread as well as your posting celebrating passing the 10,000 edition mark with ebooks here on Mobileread that you just don't get it.

The same laws that protect Mobileread's freedom to publish public domain works also protects Amazon's publisher's rights to control how and where their copyrighted works are published.

Despite what you claim in this thread, Amazon didn't use the DMCA to control where books could be published. Amazon has been doing that by going to the other digital distributors and having them "fix the bug" in their PID processing for Mobipocket editions.

All their DMCA action did here was make it extremely clear that they consider Kindle PID's to be secret encryption keys employed to control distribution of digital media.

I also suspect your attitude would be highly negative if I backed up a virtual dump truck over in the 10,000+ edition free ebook repository and started scooping up piles of content there and hauling them over to Amazon and putting them up for $.99 each.

If you feel a law is too broad in it's powers you work to change the law, you don't break it. Because when you start breaking laws you may discover they protect things you do care about.
Hmm... let's see, no, this has nothing to do with Amazon's publisher's rights to control how and where their books are published.

And, what Amazon is doing is controlling where books read on the Kindle are purchased ... not published ... purchased.

Amazon is telling me, the user, that I may NOT purchase books from other vendors. Amazon is telling me, the user, that I am limited to viewing materials on my Kindle that Amazon sells.

I am certain they would limit my access to public domain materials if they could.

It also concerns me that Amazon retains the right to monitor what materials are on my Kindle. Which include (but not for long) personal and client materials for review.

I fail to see why Alex should be required to take on Amazon in a legal battle over the damage that Amazon is doing to the rights of American citizens. He doesn't live in the States and his business is not located there.

I simply find it incredibly sad that most people, such as yourself, do not understand the distinction between copyright law and the DMCA. They are two different animals altogether, and the latter is a poor attempt to drag the former into the digital age.
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:04 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic View Post
Scotty, this is my last warning. Nowhere did I give you permission to talk about my private life or anything I might have said to you in a private message. If you cannot respect that, please leave Mobileread.

Regarding name calling: Have a look what Fanaticism stands for and you may better understand.

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Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic View Post
but I am not a US citizen, nor do I live in the US, nor do I have any business in the US. Why should I want to change US laws?
Maybe you want to look up hypocrisy?
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:06 PM   #78
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Fine, you don't want to. Bye then.
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:06 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Amalthia View Post
Scotty, I've read your first post and I've been reading the responses and finally your "rebuttle" at this point I can safely say all your posts to this thread have been offensive and inflammatory.
Not to mention mis-informed. He seems to have some significant confusion over the relationship between public domain and copyright law as well as the DMCA.
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:07 PM   #80
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Scotty,

Why exactly is software that discovers the Kindle's PID a violation of DMCA? Using the software to get the PID allows Kindle owners to purchase books from retailers other than Amazon and to also use their Kindle for reading electronic library books. Your assertion that this is somehow illegal seems like an overreaching on your part.

Did you contact Amazon and make the assertion that Mobileread was somehow violating Amazon's rights? I've noticed that you seem to be the only one here that takes the position that determing the Kindle PID is illegal and tantamount to starving babies or some such nonsense.

I tell you, it's too bad you can't give negative Karma (I tried).
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:29 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Daithi View Post
I tell you, it's too bad you can't give negative Karma (I tried).
Don't bother. He'd probably even enjoy it. Best to ignore him.
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:35 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty1024 View Post
The law on Digitial Rights Management systems and the breaking thereof is not murky at all. Unless you have a valid exemption: it's illegal (unless of course you lie somewhere where it isn't the local rule of law).

The other thing people are shocked by is that Customs does take this stuff [i]very seriously.]/i] Entering the US with a Kindle that has broken ebooks on it could result in prosecution that puts you at risk for up to $250,000 per ebook they find on your Kindle (and possible jail time). If you think I'm kidding just cross the border into the US and declare to them your Kindle is packed with broken ebooks and see what happens.

Ditto for entry to Canada and the EU (although the dollar amounts vary)
Eh, why the EU? We have nothing like the DMCA over here and despite massive lobbying from the right holders I sincerely doubt that we will ever get it. There are too many scary examples of abuse from the US for even the most corrupt of our politicians to ignore.

So feel free to bring your Kindle with whatever reading materials you prefer on your europe trip.

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Old 03-12-2009, 02:50 PM   #83
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Folks, there's no point in addressing any further remarks to Scotty1024, he's no longer in a position to respond in this forum.

Please resume your previous discussion(s), or not, as you prefer.
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:58 PM   #84
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Legally Speaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic View Post
Fine, you don't want to. Bye then.
Ahhh. The power of moderation.

This will run a little long I think, and since Scotty appears to be banned it may even be preaching to the choir, but I think it was Scotty who fails to understand the DRM and the DMCA. The Copyright Act contains exceptions which can be found in Sections 107-122 and is where you will find the references to fair use. There are also exceptions to the DMCA that are not specifically enumerated in statute. As is common here in the US, the courts have taken to interpretation of the DMCA and the scope its provisions should have.

In 2004, in Chamberlain v. Skylink, the 7th Circuit upheld a lower court ruling that the DMCA did not apply to garage door openers. See Chamberlain Group, Inc. v. Skylink Techs., Inc., 292 F. Supp. 2d 1040 (N.D. Ill 2003); aff’d, 381 F.3d 1178 (Fed Cir. 2004).

The federal court held that:

“The DMCA does not create a new property right for copyright owners. Nor, for that matter, does it divest the public of the property rights that the Copyright Act has long granted to the public. The anti-circumvention and anti-trafficking provisions of the DMCA create new grounds of liability. A copyright owner seeking to impose liability on an accused circumventor must demonstrate a reasonable relationship between the circumvention at issue and a use relating to a property right for which the Copyright Act permits the copyright owner to withhold authorization-as well as notice that authorization was withheld.”

This was reasserted in Storage Technology Corp. v. Custom Hardware Engineering & Consulting, 421 F.3d 1307 (Fed Cir. 2005), where the court held that circumvention must be related to a protectible copyright interest

Under this case, the court held that "A copyright owner alleging a violation of section 1201(a) consequently must prove that the circumvention of the technological measure either 'infringes or facilitates infringing a right protected by the Copyright Act.'"

Because the Court held that Custom Hardware's activities were not an infringement of copyright based on an exception for computer programs in Section 117 of the Copyright Act, the DMCA claim thereby failed. This suggests that if a technological control were circumvented for a noninfringing personal or fair use, the DMCA circumvention could be permissible.

The court went on to say that "The activation of the maintenance code may violate StorageTek's contractual rights vis-a-vis its customers, but those rights are not the rights protected by copyright law." This doesn't protect someone for a contractual suit based on violation of the TOS, but it would preclude the use of the breach of the TOS as a basis for a DMCA violation.

None of this really gives any finality to the ultimate question here because there still exists a valid decision in Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Reimerdes, 111 F.Supp.2d 294 (S.D.N.Y. 2000); Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Corley, 273 F.3d 429 (2d Cir. 2001), which is the now original test of the DMCA where the defendant was enjoined from posting a link to DeCSS which stripped DVD's of their copy protection allowing personal/fair use. Because there is some question as to what the current law really means, I can understand Mobileread's decision not to fight the takedown notice. Let someone with deeper pockets fight the battle.

For what it is worth, the Feds are in the process of conducting the rulemaking proceedings required under DMCA called the Rulemaking on Exemptions from Prohibition on Circumvention of Technological Measures that Control Access to Copyrighted Works. The public hearings on the requested additions to the enumerated exemptions are to be held as follows:
Palo Alto, California on Friday, May 1, 2009, at 9:00 a.m.
Washington, DC on Wednesday, May 6, 2009, Thursday, May 7, 2009, and
Friday, May 8, 2009, at 10:00 a.m.
Requests to testify must be received by 5:00 p.m. E.D.T. on Friday, April 3,
2009.

If you are interested in what exemptions are being considered you can read the requests at http://www.copyright.gov/1201/.
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:04 PM   #85
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Um ... thanks for that, I think, legaleagll.

Could you maybe boil it down into plain English for those of us (like me) not fluent in legalese?
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:23 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by NatCh View Post
Um ... thanks for that, I think, legaleagll.

Could you maybe boil it down into plain English for those of us (like me) not fluent in legalese?
You sound like my wife. She said when she first met me, she felt like she needed to carry a dictionary in order to understand me. Anyway, the summary is that there are court decisions out there that say that if the circumvention you did was to facilitate a use that qualifies as an exemption under the copyright then it is not a violation of the DMCA.

The reason I say it isn't settled is because what happens if the circumvention facilitates both a use that qualifies for an exemption (personal copy) and one that doesn't (pirating). Which is the use that is used to determine the violation of the DMCA?

I have my personal opinion as to how this should come out, which is as long as there is a legitimate exemption use for the circumvention then the public policy mandate that created that exemption should outweigh the potential illegal use.

I'm not sure that this was any clearer, but I tried.
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:27 PM   #87
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Thanks, it seemed clearer, at any rate.

But to sum up, if something like, say ... a piece of code allowed you to read a number off of a piece of hardware, which then allowed you to read a DRMed file on that piece of hardware without removing the DRM in question, then it would probably be the first category you mentioned.

But if you could then use that number, along with some totally other piece of code to remove the DRM that would put the first piece of code (the second being clearly "of the Dark Side") in the second category, and therefore in the, as yet, untested gray area.

Do I seem to be following you?
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:27 PM   #88
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g/f gave me one a k2, nice unit, not ugly, i've been on their forums, that's where i found out about this kindlepid, i wish i did program, sounds great, why does mobile read have to get rid of the stuff and amazon's blogs can keep their references to it, are they the only ones that can talk about the kindle?
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:32 PM   #89
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Excellent question, UncleDuke. I s'pose it's possible that they're simply distracted by policing others and haven't noticed what's going on in their own back yard.
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:40 PM   #90
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Now that they are trapping all of the Kindlers in their inescapable web, how long do you suppose it will take them to jack up the prices of Kindle books? After all, they can charge whatever they like to pull teeth, seeing as how they are the only dentists in town.
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