Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > News

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-06-2009, 05:27 PM   #1
snipenekkid
Banned
snipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensions
 
Posts: 765
Karma: 51034
Join Date: Feb 2009
Why are eink screens so gray?

I have been able to view the Sony reading devices and have to say they are surprisingly gray. I did a lot a research and even the eink website claims they use WHITE and black particles in the technology. If this is true then why is the background so dirty dishwater gray?

I read about it here http://eink.com/technology/howitworks.html and watched the video. I understand the principle of the displays and appreciate the complexity of a device which appears to function so darn simply. But there is a contradiction in their use of white. I saw no white anywhere on the display.

Is the gray a result of the fluid used to suspend the particles? Is it from contamination of the fluid from decomposition of the black and white particles? Of course that is if there are any genuine white particles in that layer of the display. Or is it simply from the glass used as the protective overlay? Something does not make sense and nowhere have I read an explanation that could give insight for a time frame when this will be solved. Also, to be honest I am amazed they are planning color displays. That is a lot of charge manipulations to get the particles to mix correctly and form colors.

I will say I am holding off jumping into the reading device market because of this lack of true white. Even a pastel off white would be fine. But gray is not white.
snipenekkid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 05:29 PM   #2
lilac_jive
Grand Sorcerer
lilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud of
 
lilac_jive's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,871
Karma: 27376
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Device: PRS-505
I'm not sure, but are you sure you want white? The gray is really easy on the eyes. It's a similar color to most mass market paperbacks.

I actually read a book the other day in hardcover with white pages and my eyes started hurting.
lilac_jive is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Enthusiast
Old 03-06-2009, 05:34 PM   #3
snipenekkid
Banned
snipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensions
 
Posts: 765
Karma: 51034
Join Date: Feb 2009
I can say I have no paperbacks that have gray pages. I did find the screens disappointing on one hand. All of my reference books and texts have pure white pages as well as the books I buy for reading. The paperbacks all have more of a cream color paper that is not gray. Even the old SF paperbacks I have from the 40s & 50s.

I will say I do want white but can see where too white would be a problem reading outdoors as it might reflect too much sunlight. This was why I mentioned a pastel off-white. I should have been more specific in asking about something closer to a paperback and it's cream colored paper.
snipenekkid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 05:37 PM   #4
lilac_jive
Grand Sorcerer
lilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud of
 
lilac_jive's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,871
Karma: 27376
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Device: PRS-505
Quote:
Originally Posted by snipenekkid View Post
I can say I have no paperbacks that have gray pages. I did find the screens disappointing on one hand. All of my reference books and texts have pure white pages as well as the books I buy for reading. The paperbacks all have more of a cream color paper that is not gray. Even the old SF paperbacks I have from the 40s & 50s.

I will say I do want white but can see where too white would be a problem reading outdoors as it might reflect too much sunlight. This was why I mentioned a pastel off-white. I should have been more specific in asking about something closer to a paperback and it's cream colored paper.
Well, pastel involves color screen.

Anyway, are you worried about reading it or do you just want it to be white because you want it to be white? Eink screens are extremely clear and easy to read on.
lilac_jive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 05:39 PM   #5
pilotbob
Grand Sorcerer
pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pilotbob's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,524
Karma: 11329767
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Device: Kindle Touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by snipenekkid View Post
I have been able to view the Sony reading devices and have to say they are surprisingly gray.
They really aren't that bad. They are similar to newpaper or parchment. Now they are not stark white.

But, they are very clear and readable.

BOb
pilotbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 05:50 PM   #6
mjh215
Guru
mjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentametermjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentametermjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentametermjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentametermjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentametermjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentametermjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentametermjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentametermjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentametermjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentametermjh215 can solve quadratic equations while standing on his or her head reciting poetry in iambic pentameter
 
Posts: 989
Karma: 12653
Join Date: Apr 2008
Device: None of your business
Someone can correct me but what I think causes the gray surface is that the pellets (pixels) can't be 100% opaque at that size, so regardless how white they are the black pellets shifted behind will still bleed thru to some extent, plus along the edges. Try taking a colored LED/laserpointer/flashlight and sticking it behind the skin between your thumb and forefinger and you'll see what I mean...

I don't mind the gray myself, as Lilac mentioned it is easy on the eyes... I would actually prefer a blacker black and increased resolution for better anti-aliasing (especially on serif fonts). But a darker black might, for the same reason as above, result in a darker gray background.

-MJ
mjh215 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 05:53 PM   #7
cerement
Groupie
cerement knows what time it iscerement knows what time it iscerement knows what time it iscerement knows what time it iscerement knows what time it iscerement knows what time it iscerement knows what time it iscerement knows what time it iscerement knows what time it iscerement knows what time it iscerement knows what time it is
 
cerement's Avatar
 
Posts: 170
Karma: 2000
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San José, CA
Device: Amazon Kindle 1, Sony PRS-300, Amazon Kindle 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilac_jive View Post
Well, pastel involves color screen.
Not necessarily, would just require the "white" pigment of eInk to be an Ivory shade which would give us closer to a "paperback" feel without resorting to a four-color screen and attempting to match an ivory color with a mix of yellow and black pigment.

But I do agree with snipenekkid, the terminology is confusing when the manufacturers and the makers refer to "black and white" while talking about a device that is clearly not black and white, even the good screens like Kindle and Sony PRS-505 are at best "75% gray and 25% gray"

I've gotten used to and grown to love the light-gray of my Kindle screen (or the Sony PRS-505), certainly over the gray of the older Sony PRS-500 and the washed out screen of the Sony PRS-700. But while I don't mind the light-gray, I do wish the "black" was a bit darker (a more "assertive" black) - maybe even something as simple as 80% gray on 20% gray ...
cerement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 05:55 PM   #8
snipenekkid
Banned
snipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensions
 
Posts: 765
Karma: 51034
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
They really aren't that bad. They are similar to newpaper or parchment. Now they are not stark white.

But, they are very clear and readable.

BOb
Parchment is not gray nor is newspaper. Though newspaper might be more gray and parchment. Neither is near as gray as the Sony readers I looked at in the store. And I looked at several just to be sure the first one was not a bad device.

I am not sure I would find them comfortable to read without adding an external light. Maybe the display color is a compromise between the promoted white color and the actual production units to allow for easier reading under the brightest conditions such as outdoors?

I have a sense your response was somewhat defensive and had the need to tell me what my perception of the device should be. Was I not supposed to ask a question about this issue here on this board? If so, very sorry for that.
snipenekkid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 06:06 PM   #9
daffy4u
I'm Super Kindle-icious
daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.daffy4u ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
daffy4u's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,731
Karma: 2429021
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Long Drive, Calinadia Candafornia
Device: K1, KTSO, KFHD7, KPW1
Quote:
Originally Posted by snipenekkid View Post
Parchment is not gray nor is newspaper. Though newspaper might be more gray and parchment. Neither is near as gray as the Sony readers I looked at in the store. And I looked at several just to be sure the first one was not a bad device.

I am not sure I would find them comfortable to read without adding an external light. Maybe the display color is a compromise between the promoted white color and the actual production units to allow for easier reading under the brightest conditions such as outdoors?

I have a sense your response was somewhat defensive and had the need to tell me what my perception of the device should be. Was I not supposed to ask a question about this issue here on this board? If so, very sorry for that.
Don't get upset, I don't think BOb was being defensive at all. You might be a bit sensitive.

I don't know which device you're particularly interested in but maybe you could take advantage of the "See a device in a cafe near you" thread and play with one in a real world situation (not the wacky lights of a store). Or you can try a Kindle for 30 days and return it if you feel it doesn't work for you.

Maybe you're the type of person who would prefer an LCD screen reader. I'm sure there is something out there that will work for you.
daffy4u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 06:06 PM   #10
pilotbob
Grand Sorcerer
pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.pilotbob ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
pilotbob's Avatar
 
Posts: 19,524
Karma: 11329767
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Device: Kindle Touch
Quote:
Originally Posted by snipenekkid View Post
I have a sense your response was somewhat defensive and had the need to tell me what my perception of the device should be.
Not at all. I re-read my reply to you and don't see where I try to tell you what your perception should be? I didn't even disagree with you.

I will try to restate.

YOU ARE CORRECT, the screens are not "white". They are a bit gray/off white whatever you want to call it. However, most other paper medium you might read from is also not white. Parchment is a ivory color and news paper, I'm not even sure how to describe it.

I was also trying to say that it is very readable. For me, and you may of course feel differently, I can read my Kindle at the same light level with the same font size of a paper back book. I don't find I need more light than with a paper book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snipenekkid View Post
Was I not supposed to ask a question about this issue here on this board? If so, very sorry for that.
Not at all. You are welcome to ask any question you want. I'm sorry if I didn't give you the response you expected.

BOb

Last edited by pilotbob; 03-06-2009 at 06:09 PM.
pilotbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 07:20 PM   #11
snipenekkid
Banned
snipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensions
 
Posts: 765
Karma: 51034
Join Date: Feb 2009
pilotbob:

Thank you for the replies. Sorry if it was me who came across as defensive. Nothing could be farther from the truth from me. But you know how some boards can be a microcosm, with some topics generating a fair amount of contentious "how dare you ask" responses. From my reading I have found mixed responses to this topic so I did not want to step on any toes or come across as negative about eink devices. I think eink is a grand technology. Maybe too early for my entry into the market though.

So, no harm no foul and I do appreciate the feedback. Still I am curious about the technology side of the equation. As in why does the page over at eink.com indicate white particles when the result is not white? Maybe I was not clear about that portion of my question.

And as I mentioned it could easily be a middle ground between an neon type white resulting in a screen which is too hard on the eyes outdoors.

daffy4u:

Thank you for the suggestion but first I will not meet with anyone I know only from the internet, it's simply an unwise behavior. Next I have seen eink device and have several PDA and PDA like devices I can read on already. I was simply hoping for a lower power simply device that eink is purported to represent. I can say if I had a choice between the eink Sony devices and a PDA with some form of LCD and a transreflective display, I would opt for the PDA type device. But still I don't like reading on my PDA much either so I will likely just wait for the technology to mature enough to be more in line with my expectations.

My interest in them was peaked when viewing the marketing photo's showing very white backgrounds on the devices. After viewing the Sony devices in person I now see those photo's were either photoshop enhanced or taken under extremely bright lighting conditions with studio strobes or speedlights to enhance the contrast enough to make the image appear to have a white background.
snipenekkid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 07:28 PM   #12
snipenekkid
Banned
snipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensions
 
Posts: 765
Karma: 51034
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjh215 View Post
Someone can correct me but what I think causes the gray surface is that the pellets (pixels) can't be 100% opaque at that size, so regardless how white they are the black pellets shifted behind will still bleed thru to some extent, plus along the edges. Try taking a colored LED/laserpointer/flashlight and sticking it behind the skin between your thumb and forefinger and you'll see what I mean...

I don't mind the gray myself, as Lilac mentioned it is easy on the eyes... I would actually prefer a blacker black and increased resolution for better anti-aliasing (especially on serif fonts). But a darker black might, for the same reason as above, result in a darker gray background.

-MJ
Hmmmm, the inability to have 100% opaque particles would make sense. I could see the particle size influencing the color. Perhaps round it not the ideal shape as it could also leave gaps between particles. Though if gaps were the cause I would expect a non-uniform look to the display.

But the opacity of the pellets would sure seem a reasonable explanation. I would also imagine the black would likewise not be 100% opaque thus leading to a less black looking text. I might also explain why bolder text give a blacker appearance. A stronger charge is used to attract more particles to the area. This would decrease the penetration of the white particles under the black from peeking through the black.
snipenekkid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 07:31 PM   #13
lilac_jive
Grand Sorcerer
lilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud oflilac_jive has much to be proud of
 
lilac_jive's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,871
Karma: 27376
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Device: PRS-505
Which ones did you see with such a white screen (advertised)? I just took a look on Sony's website again just to see, and the screen looks just like my device.

I'm just suprised, you're the only person I know of who's noticed this.

I really think you should try one out, especially if you don't want to read on a PDA anymore. Maybe a Kindle, since you can return it within 30 days?

Sorry I'm not trying to bust on you. I'm just a little confuzzled.
lilac_jive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 07:32 PM   #14
snipenekkid
Banned
snipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensionssnipenekkid can understand the language of future parallel dimensions
 
Posts: 765
Karma: 51034
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
and news paper, I'm not even sure how to describe it.

BOb
Perhaps a creamy-gray? But you are right it is neither gray nor that slightly yellow-cream color of paperback books. Never thought of describing the color of newsprint paper. cream-toupe?
snipenekkid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 07:35 PM   #15
Elfwreck
Grand Sorcerer
Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Elfwreck's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,142
Karma: 24387852
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Clié; PRS-505; EZR Pocket Pro, PRS-600, Kobo Mini
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilac_jive View Post
Which ones did you see with such a white screen (advertised)? I just took a look on Sony's website again just to see, and the screen looks just like my device.

I'm just suprised, you're the only person I know of who's noticed this.
I noticed it, and enough to worry about getting a PRS-500, which seems to be a darker grey (from images online; haven't seen one in person). I'm aware that the screen isn't "white," but it doesn't bother me, and it wouldn't have occurred to me to mention it--I read on a Clie screen for a couple of years first, and there's definitely no "white" involved in that.
Elfwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Photographic comparisons of K3 Pearl to older eInk screens jswinden Amazon Kindle 16 08-31-2010 01:46 AM
PVI (eInk) to Ship Plastic Screens in 2010 anurag News 7 12-22-2009 10:20 AM
How much better is eInk from grayscale LCD screens? angelbleu Which one should I buy? 2 11-13-2009 05:19 AM
A question about eInk screens MrFinch Which one should I buy? 14 12-03-2008 10:59 AM
Variation in eInk Screens rmt Sony Reader 1 05-08-2007 11:57 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:49 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.