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Old 03-01-2009, 04:15 PM   #91
Sydney's Mom
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Sarcasm aside, I suspect the library buys the book and uses overdrive for the distribution. I saw the monthly cost somewhere. I order paper books online the very same way. Those have to be manually delivered to my local library.

The library is not required to buy any more books because kindle owners can now check out library books. I can only checkout a book for a period of time, and then it is returned (I don't even have the option of keeping it out longer, via renewal or fine). I cannot check out a book if someone else has it checked out. Actually, the library has to submit useage statistics to the village board when asking for money, and my reuse of the library is going to look good on their statistics. And since they are already paying for overdrive, it isn't costing them a thing. Who exactly is the victim in this scenario? Again, if I sold the books, or created my own lending library, clearly the author can complain. But if my using the library causes the usership to go up, and the library to get more funding, which they will use buying more books, I just don't see who is harmed.

Now, there are some victimless crimes that are crimes because they involve behavior that we want to discourage. What behavior are we discouraging with me borrowing library books? And it is borrowing, even if the DRM is stripped. I do not keep the books. I am sitting at home, reading, instead of causing trouble out on the streets. What is not to love?
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Old 03-01-2009, 04:19 PM   #92
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What behavior are we discouraging with me borrowing library books? And it is borrowing, even if the DRM is stripped. I do not keep the books. I am sitting at home, reading, instead of causing trouble out on the streets. What is not to love?
None at all. But, having the book when you DON'T have them checked out is what we should discourage. Because if you have the book checked out... then I can't check it out. And, if you save it past that time, I have it checked out now and we are both reading it.

If you can't read it in the time frame you have it checked out, don't check it out. Check it out when you are going to read it, then delete it if you are done. The same thing that would happen if you kept the DRM on it intact.

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Old 03-01-2009, 04:25 PM   #93
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Agreed. I am being greedy, because I am afraid that at some point I will not be able to borrow library books anymore, just like before this week.

However, I am still only reading the book once, and you are only reading the book once. Isn't that just the kind of time-shifting that VCRs were all about? And I am not fast-forwarding through any commercials in my library books.
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Old 03-01-2009, 04:30 PM   #94
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I wonder if that puts your friend in violation of their agreement. After all, you're not paying any taxes to support that library yet you are using their collection.
I don't think libraries have rules against borrowing a book and lending it to a friend (I do this all the time with paper books). It shouldn't matter if the friend is across the other side of the world as long as the book gets returned on time.
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Old 03-01-2009, 06:32 PM   #95
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Libraries are funded to provide free books for a limited period of time. I could xerox a library book and read it later. I believe there is a copyright exception for personal use.
Exactly.

This is precisely the legal right that carried the Betamax case: the right to copy a TV show to watch it at a different time from broadcast. That was deemed to be a non-infringing use of a copy-making device, and is the key reason VCRs were declared legal, and the foundation of modern "copy for personal use" rights.

The library can only provide so many "broadcasts" of an ebook at a time. If individuals can time-shift those "broadcasts" to read them later, that's no more copyright infringing than using a VCR to watch all your favorite TV shows on Sunday, rather than 1 hour every night.

It can become an illegal copy if given away... but maybe not. Giving away taped TV shows to a friend or family member has never been prosecuted; it's only when money changes hands that the main distributors start to become concerned. (Non-commercial copyright infringement, on its own, is not a crime in the US, but a tort--the wronged party must file suit to insist they've been wronged; if they don't, no harm is assumed. Like breach of contract, if nobody's complaining, it's assumed that no damage has been done.) (IANAL)

Removing the DRM, and keeping a copy, is no different from taping a TV show and keeping the tape. That the library, like the TV network, only provides the content for a limited time doesn't mean end users are required to only view the content in that time.
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Old 03-01-2009, 06:49 PM   #96
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This is not correct. You could not xerox a library book and read it later. When you xerox a library book, you are creating a non legitimate copy of a book. It is not what the Betamax time shifting issue was about at all.

Time shifting was taking a legitimate copy of an episode and watching at a later time, not taking a copy to which you had no ownership of and using it at a later time. Further, it wasn't that time shifting was per se fair use, but that in the circumstances, it was fair use considering all the elements of fair use.

Do you think it would be okay to keep the copy of the library book for extended period of time? The library system rests on non possessory rights of borrowers.
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:26 PM   #97
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Do you think I am being punished?

I cannot download the free book at Harlequin. I tried the Adobe PDF, and the mobi. The other mobis in my account still download fine, but I believe that the reason I can't download this book is because I am downloading library books to my kindle.

I guess piracy gives you bad karma.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:03 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Sydney's Mom View Post
I cannot download the free book at Harlequin. I tried the Adobe PDF, and the mobi. The other mobis in my account still download fine, but I believe that the reason I can't download this book is because I am downloading library books to my kindle.

I guess piracy gives you bad karma.


There's definitely something wrong with the download. I was trying to help someone earlier and none of the three formats seem to want to download.
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:30 PM   #99
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There's definitely something wrong with the download. I was trying to help someone earlier and none of the three formats seem to want to download.
You mean I'm not being punished? I'm only paranoid because they ARE out to get me.

Debra
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:44 PM   #100
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You mean I'm not being punished? I'm only paranoid because they ARE out to get me.

Debra
Exactly


(Oh, BTW the downloads seem to work now).

Last edited by AnemicOak; 03-02-2009 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:58 PM   #101
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I have a lot of sympathy with this position. I just cracked my first DRMed PDF library book so I could read it on my Kindle. I'm reading it now and will delete it when I'm done. I feel that I'm keeping within the spirit of the rule if not the letter. If I didn't read it for a few weeks I would be stretching that rule even further. I might still be comfortable with that but there's one thing I would want to know first. How does my library pay Overdrive for these books? Is it some sort of flat fee for the service or do they pay for each book I borrow? If they pay for each book and I end up downloading more books than I would normally with the idea that I will read them later, then they would end up paying more than they should if I end up not reading some of the books I borrow.
But what if I am downloading the books today at a fee that is less than it will be in the future? And that I will live long enough to continue to download the maximum?
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Old 03-02-2009, 02:46 PM   #102
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But what if I am downloading the books today at a fee that is less than it will be in the future? And that I will live long enough to continue to download the maximum?
LOL. I obviously worry too much about these fine points. I suppose if it were a fee-per-download model (which it sounds like it is) then you would only be harming the library if books you downloaded but didn't read outweighed the difference in price adjusted for inflation.

Ok, so here's my new ethical dilemma: Let's say each book is an individual purchase, like pbooks, and can be downloaded as many times as possible provided that they only have the allowable number of copies out at once. With PDF books, I have the ability to turn things back in early allowing more downloads over time than Mobipocket. The most truthful thing I can do is download the book, read it and return it when done. If I have stripped the DRM, I don't have to retain the license to read it. Even if I took a week to read it, I could turn it back in right away and free it up for someone else. However this could cause the library to inadvertently violate its license for the book but at the same time it might increase usage of the ebook service allowing them to focus more on the enterprise, get more funding and purchase even more books.

Last edited by Alisa; 03-02-2009 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 03-02-2009, 02:54 PM   #103
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This is not correct. You could not xerox a library book and read it later. When you xerox a library book, you are creating a non legitimate copy of a book. It is not what the Betamax time shifting issue was about at all.
Its legal to xerox a book (at least on Germany). If you buy a xerox machine a part of the price is for the book industry.
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Old 03-02-2009, 07:07 PM   #104
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This is just too confusing. Uncle
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Old 03-02-2009, 08:48 PM   #105
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Its legal to xerox a book (at least on Germany). If you buy a xerox machine a part of the price is for the book industry.
You buy a xerox machine to photocopy stuff. You don't xerox it as that is not a verb.
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