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Old 01-24-2009, 03:01 PM   #76
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Mostly towards monotheists. His arguments dissolve if you don't believe that "god" means "eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and good."

He has accepted the Christian definition of "deity" and works to disprove it; his arguments are fairly meaningless to people of faiths who don't accept the Christian definition of "god."

As a devout person of a non-monotheistic religion, I find its inclusion much less inflammatory than, say, an excerpt of the Bible. But mostly, I agree with the people who assume they decided to include it based on recent book sales, and that they're likely to change the "starter pack" for Sony Readers every year or two to match current market preferences, whatever those happen to be.
Oh, heck yes. I too believe that they've included an excerpt because it's a bestseller. Makes perfect sense to me.

But, I wouldn't say that Dawkin's arguments are "meaningless" to people who do not accept the Christian (Jewish, Muslim) definition of a god (or their "God"). His arguments certainly resonate with me. I would say that they don't provoke people who do not accept that definition of a god.

I read his books and I don't feel the need to argue back. It's more along the lines of being a good read that I wish I had written.
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Old 01-24-2009, 03:09 PM   #77
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Hmmm.

Last edited by HistoryWes; 01-24-2009 at 04:10 PM. Reason: sleeping.
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Old 01-24-2009, 03:21 PM   #78
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You all know me and know that I am proud to be a Christian - why don't you join me in gratitude to our Savior, Jesus Christ, for dying for us and paying the price for our sins?

I keep a copy of the Holy Bible on whatever device I may be using, including my office computer. I work for a state and federally funded university, and am proud that the doctors and nurses and staff with whom I work have the courage to pray at the bedsides of the children they are caring for. We use our computers to share "daily devotions" emails at work.

I would prefer that my judges and elected officials base their principles on the Holy Bible, instead of anything else. Even without faith, surely no one can deny that the Golden Rule and Ten Commandments are clear instructions for living a life of good morals.

I work with Hindus, Muslims, and Jews. When they tell me that they ary praying for me, I appreciate it. And I know they appreciate being remembered in prayer by the Christians. I feel blessed to be a part of such a fine group of people.

This thread is a waste of time, having originated from a heart filled with hatred and intolerance. Instead of attacking mssmith, we should accept her and hope that by association with this wonderful group of MRers, she will learn to appreciate the beliefs of others without compromising her own faith. I hope this will be the final post to this thread and that it will disappear into obscurity very quickly.
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Old 01-24-2009, 03:25 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by DixieGal View Post
You all know me and know that I am proud to be a Christian - why don't you join me in gratitude to our Savior, Jesus Christ, for dying for us and paying the price for our sins?

I keep a copy of the Holy Bible on whatever device I may be using, including my office computer. I work for a state and federally funded university, and am proud that the doctors and nurses and staff with whom I work have the courage to pray at the bedsides of the children they are caring for. We use our computers to share "daily devotions" emails at work.

I would prefer that my judges and elected officials base their principles on the Holy Bible, instead of anything else. Even without faith, surely no one can deny that the Golden Rule and Ten Commandments are clear instructions for living a life of good morals.

I work with Hindus, Muslims, and Jews. When they tell me that they ary praying for me, I appreciate it. And I know they appreciate being remembered in prayer by the Christians. I feel blessed to be a part of such a fine group of people.

This thread is a waste of time, having originated from a heart filled with hatred and intolerance. Instead of attacking mssmith, we should accept her and hope that by association with this wonderful group of MRers, she will learn to appreciate the beliefs of others without compromising her own faith. I hope this will be the final post to this thread and that it will disappear into obscurity very quickly.
Leave it to DixieGal to put things into perspective.
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Old 01-24-2009, 03:43 PM   #80
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YEven without faith, surely no one can deny that the Golden Rule and Ten Commandments are clear instructions for living a life of good morals.
Am I missing a joke or?

The golden rule have obvious problems. Kants categorical imperative tries to fix some of them. How do you defined "good morals" to avoid a circular definition here?
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:08 PM   #81
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:20 PM   #82
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You all know me and know that I am proud to be a Christian - why don't you join me in gratitude to our Savior, Jesus Christ, for dying for us and paying the price for our sins?

I keep a copy of the Holy Bible on whatever device I may be using, including my office computer. I work for a state and federally funded university, and am proud that the doctors and nurses and staff with whom I work have the courage to pray at the bedsides of the children they are caring for. We use our computers to share "daily devotions" emails at work.

I would prefer that my judges and elected officials base their principles on the Holy Bible, instead of anything else. Even without faith, surely no one can deny that the Golden Rule and Ten Commandments are clear instructions for living a life of good morals.

I work with Hindus, Muslims, and Jews. When they tell me that they ary praying for me, I appreciate it. And I know they appreciate being remembered in prayer by the Christians. I feel blessed to be a part of such a fine group of people.

This thread is a waste of time, having originated from a heart filled with hatred and intolerance. Instead of attacking mssmith, we should accept her and hope that by association with this wonderful group of MRers, she will learn to appreciate the beliefs of others without compromising her own faith. I hope this will be the final post to this thread and that it will disappear into obscurity very quickly.
I respect your beliefs, and consider you a good friend. However, I can't join you in gratitude to Jesus simply because I don't believe that he died for any reason whatsoever. Not for my sins, not for your sins, not for anyone's sins.

I would prefer that my judges and elected officials base their decisions on the law. Not on the Christian Bible, not on the Muslim Koran, not on any books written hundreds or thousands of years ago. Do I want someone who really believes that "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" to be making decisions that will impact my life? No.

In addition, "morals" are a distinctly religious animal. I prefer ethics myself, and would rather live an ethical life than someone else's idea of a "moral" one.

As to Christians, Muslims and Jews, well, you all worship the "God of Abraham" so I would certainly hope that you appreciate each other's prayers. I don't even feel bad about people of those faiths praying for me, if that means they are sending the energy of good thoughts in my general direction. If they are asking a god-figure that I don't believe in to do something for me ... well, no point telling me about that because I'm a non-believer of the first order.

The Ten Commandments are not something I find compelling ... at least not all of them. Since I had a biological father that was a complete jerk, a commandment ordering me to "honor" him is (and always was) a bit of a hoot. Likewise a commandment demanding that I have no other gods but the God of Abraham. Not going to happen. I like the "thou shalt not kill" one ... but considering all the wars going on between the three major religions that worship the same god, well .... I'll take that one with a grain of salt too. I prefer "thou shalt not commit murder" and "thou shall not hunt for sport" .... those really work for me.

The Golden Rule? Well, that's an essential part of the Buddhist philosophy. Sort of the "what goes around comes around" .... "cause no suffering lest ye suffer" idea. Which is why Buddhists don't have missionaries ... the idea is that trying to convert someone who is happy in their own beliefs to another way of thinking is to cause suffering, and therefore, wrong.

But ... no, I don't look for people with whom I associate or for whom I vote to be "good Christians." I look for them to be good people.
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:21 PM   #83
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I can tell you all one thing. I've been wondering where to spend my 20% Sony discount. Not any more. Gonna download Mr Dawkins
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:29 PM   #84
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I can tell you all one thing. I've been wondering where to spend my 20% Sony discount. Not any more. Gonna download Mr Dawkins
I'm very happy that at least one person was able to benefit from this thread...
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:30 PM   #85
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I can tell you all one thing. I've been wondering where to spend my 20% Sony discount. Not any more. Gonna download Mr Dawkins
I highly recommend his books, they are outstanding. I do wish the Kindle Store had "The Blind Watchmaker." I really want to read that one, but I'm trying like crazy not to purchase anymore dead tree books.
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:59 PM   #86
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You mean Rowling?? Got 'em all!! Loved 'em all!! Although, I am no end of pissed off that they are not available for the Kindle.
Actually they are. Just not legally. Which is pretty much what "Jo" asked for. By not making official ebooks of her novels she ensured that the only way to get a digital copy was to violate her copyright. A bit ironic isn't it?

BOb
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Old 01-24-2009, 05:01 PM   #87
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I hope this will be the final post to this thread and that it will disappear into obscurity very quickly.
You always do like to get the last word don't cha?

BOb
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Old 01-24-2009, 05:05 PM   #88
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You always do like to get the last word don't cha?

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No, apparently YOU do!
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Old 01-24-2009, 05:07 PM   #89
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No, apparently YOU do!
Heh... you resemble that remark!

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Old 01-24-2009, 05:23 PM   #90
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Actually they are. Just not legally. Which is pretty much what "Jo" asked for. By not making official ebooks of her novels she ensured that the only way to get a digital copy was to violate her copyright. A bit ironic isn't it?

BOb
Indeed. I'm sure I will be making my own copies for my own use sometime in the near future. I don't want to damage my hard back copies, so I'll probably purchase paperbacks and cut them up for scanning.

Eeeesh.
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