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Old 12-30-2008, 01:44 PM   #1
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Books on Calligraphy and Penmanship

IAMPETH -The International Association of Master Penmen, Engrossers and Teachers of Handwriting- has a variety of antiquarian texts on the subject available for download on their site. They are PDF's, and most likely in unfriendly sizes. The one I grabbed was about 8.5x5, wide but short like a Zaner student's book.

http://www.iampeth.com/books.php

-MJ
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Old 12-30-2008, 03:10 PM   #2
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Wow! People don't write like that anymore. Some of these books would be interesting for artists and font lovers. This page shows the correct way to create shadows behind letters.

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Old 12-30-2008, 03:20 PM   #3
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Wow! People don't write like that anymore. Some of these books would be interesting for artists and font lovers. This page shows the correct way to create shadows behind letters.

Dreamer
Do a search on youtube sometime for 'copperplate', watching some of the guys do that lettering is amazing. (Which is how I got linked to that site)

-MJ
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:26 PM   #4
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beautiful. that is true craftsmanship.
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:26 AM   #5
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Wow! People don't write like that anymore. Some of these books would be interesting for artists and font lovers. This page shows the correct way to create shadows behind letters.

Dreamer
It's true that they don't write that way anymore.

It is also true that if the schools are wasting much time on penmanship with my niece instead of getting her on a keyboard as soon as possible when she is old enough for school I and the rest of the family will be pitching a fit with the school board. Penmanship is now as useful as skill with a slide rule.

Grammar on the other hand is as important as ever.
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:41 AM   #6
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It's true that they don't write that way anymore.

It is also true that if the schools are wasting much time on penmanship with my niece instead of getting her on a keyboard as soon as possible when she is old enough for school I and the rest of the family will be pitching a fit with the school board. Penmanship is now as useful as skill with a slide rule.

Grammar on the other hand is as important as ever.
In Kindergarden here, they do put you on the computer.

They also, (at least my granddaughters teacher does ,) insist they write legibly, and neatly. Calligraphy, of course, is not applicable. However, making your work easy to read is very important.

My daughter teaches second grade, and its a nightmare trying to even make out their names sometimes. This is because no one thinks its 'important', and its not reinforced.

Until we become a completely paperless society, its very important.
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:52 AM   #7
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It's true that they don't write that way anymore.

It is also true that if the schools are wasting much time on penmanship with my niece instead of getting her on a keyboard as soon as possible when she is old enough for school I and the rest of the family will be pitching a fit with the school board. Penmanship is now as useful as skill with a slide rule.

Grammar on the other hand is as important as ever.
I think you're wrong. My brother is in the sixth grade, and he has absolutely atrocious penmanship becuase his teachers thought the same way you do. His printing is about as good as I could do in the second grade. It's not illegible, it just looks like a second grader. And since he is in the sixth grade, they will not spend any more time on penmanship. Think of what it will mean when he has to take notes in a meeting at work.

Computer skills do not take as much time as penmanship. If you want your niece to use a computer, get her a typing program. Also, simply putting her in front of a keyboard is a waste of time if it isn't a structured teaching event.
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:52 AM   #8
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It's true that they don't write that way anymore.

It is also true that if the schools are wasting much time on penmanship with my niece instead of getting her on a keyboard as soon as possible when she is old enough for school I and the rest of the family will be pitching a fit with the school board. Penmanship is now as useful as skill with a slide rule.
I must respectfully disagree. Being able to write clearly and legibly is still an extremely important skill.
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:23 AM   #9
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They also, (at least my granddaughters teacher does ,) insist they write legibly, and neatly. Calligraphy, of course, is not applicable. However, making your work easy to read is very important.
I wrote horribly, always got low grades for my penmanship when I was at grade school. But, once a year, we had a week of "special" classes, where we would do all things that weren't normally done at school. So there were cooking courses, knitting courses and that sort of stuff. But there was also a caligraphy course. Ever since I followed that, I've been able to write legibly and neatly.

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It is also true that if the schools are wasting much time on penmanship with my niece instead of getting her on a keyboard as soon as possible when she is old enough for school I and the rest of the family will be pitching a fit with the school board. Penmanship is now as useful as skill with a slide rule.
I so don't agree with that. I'm a software developer, but I use paper (and a white board) often for note taking, as it's still easier to grab a piece of paper from the printer to write upon than getting my pc and type it in a word processor and then print it out. And don't even mention the postcards I send from holiday, which must also be legible, as it won't be delivered otherwise.

Also, learning good penmanship is also a good lesson in hand/eye coordination. So, I think it's bad business if small children only learn how to use a keyboard and not a pen.
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:34 AM   #10
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When I subbed classes (at a technical school) I used to hate all the noise from people taking notes on their computer. I decided to experiment at times (partly cause I was just being a prick) at having students tell me what I had just been teaching them, without looking at the notes. The ones who handwrote their notes had greater retention of the topic then those that typed it. This was by no means a decent scientific study, and I've always wondered if someone had conducted an experiment along these lines. I would be curious of the results. Those taking notes on the computer have the benefit of being able to format, edit and search however they want but something about the effort of writing the information down embeds it in memory better. (Edited to add, 'I think' to that last statement.)

-MJ

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Old 12-31-2008, 07:12 AM   #11
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Given the opportunity, my handwriting quickly deteriorates to an unreadable scrawl. For that reason, I nearly always use a fountain pen; for normal writing, one with a square-cut ("stub") nib, and for quick note taking, one with a conventional fine nib.

In addition, I still "practise my letters" from time-to-time - even though I'm into my second half-century! For this, my preferred handwriting guide is the "Getty-Dubay" pattern, which I find both looks good, and does not degrade to a slightly bumpy - and unreadable - line when taking notes at speed. (c.f. Palmer, for example).

Now you've reminded me, I have some G-D tt fonts. I wonder how they would look on my cybook...

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Old 01-01-2009, 11:01 AM   #12
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I think you're wrong. My brother is in the sixth grade, and he has absolutely atrocious penmanship becuase his teachers thought the same way you do. His printing is about as good as I could do in the second grade. It's not illegible, it just looks like a second grader. And since he is in the sixth grade, they will not spend any more time on penmanship. Think of what it will mean when he has to take notes in a meeting at work.

Computer skills do not take as much time as penmanship. If you want your niece to use a computer, get her a typing program. Also, simply putting her in front of a keyboard is a waste of time if it isn't a structured teaching event.
I submit to you that business also thinks the way I do.

In Texas, you can no longer cash a check in a bank where you don't have an account on signature ID. Fingerprints are required. they are more secure.

My family has a cleaning business - primarily commercial floor and window work, but some janitorial contracts as well. There is not nearly as much paper waste in offices as there was just six years ago. Paperless offices may not be here yet, but they are rapidly on their way and the movement of making notes on paste its to making notes on smart phones has made a significant drop in trash just the last couple years. Go to office depot and look at the section where they sell sticky notes, Then think of how big a selection they were carrying in 2000.

Legible printing skill is still necessary. Cursive script (I am willing to debate with all comers) is as necessary as a slide rule. It takes too long to learn, considering it will never be needed in the business world these young ones are going to grow up to.
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Old 01-01-2009, 09:11 PM   #13
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Cursive script (I am willing to debate with all comers) is as necessary as a slide rule. It takes too long to learn, considering it will never be needed in the business world these young ones are going to grow up to.
Let me tell you a tale. In college I became interested in a game called shogi. After college I worked in London for a while and found the London Shogi Association. led by an enthusiast who had both ime and money to spend. He ent to Japan and attemped to research the history of the game. His greatest problem was the large number of documents that no one could read anymore.

This was because of two things. One was that, roughly 100 years ago, the government decided to simplify the language by reducing he number of ideograms in use. The second was the ongoing process of simplifying cursive writing. The result is historic documents that consist of squiggles that no one can read.

My fear is that removing cursive writing from the curriculam will have a similar effect over a similar span of time. You could argue that there is plenty of time to convert all documents of interest, but I beg leave to doubt that the job would be done, especially for private documents (like great gran's recipe book or the notes in the family bible) and that is just in North America with its short written history.
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Old 01-01-2009, 09:42 PM   #14
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I submit to you that business also thinks the way I do.

In Texas, you can no longer cash a check in a bank where you don't have an account on signature ID. Fingerprints are required. they are more secure.

My family has a cleaning business - primarily commercial floor and window work, but some janitorial contracts as well. There is not nearly as much paper waste in offices as there was just six years ago. Paperless offices may not be here yet, but they are rapidly on their way and the movement of making notes on paste its to making notes on smart phones has made a significant drop in trash just the last couple years. Go to office depot and look at the section where they sell sticky notes, Then think of how big a selection they were carrying in 2000.

Legible printing skill is still necessary. Cursive script (I am willing to debate with all comers) is as necessary as a slide rule. It takes too long to learn, considering it will never be needed in the business world these young ones are going to grow up to.
I would argue that life is about more than just business.

We are a long long way from a paperless society, and your attitude towards not learning something ,that in your opinion is useless, can only hurt your niece's chances of success in school.

She'd better be able to write clearly in cursive. Teachers, while some will accept typed reports, usually insist on the first draft be written.

Tests, especially essays, are in written format. If her writing can't be read, she's in for a hard road.
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Old 01-01-2009, 09:42 PM   #15
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I submit to you that business also thinks the way I do.

In Texas, you can no longer cash a check in a bank where you don't have an account on signature ID. Fingerprints are required. they are more secure.

My family has a cleaning business - primarily commercial floor and window work, but some janitorial contracts as well. There is not nearly as much paper waste in offices as there was just six years ago. Paperless offices may not be here yet, but they are rapidly on their way and the movement of making notes on paste its to making notes on smart phones has made a significant drop in trash just the last couple years. Go to office depot and look at the section where they sell sticky notes, Then think of how big a selection they were carrying in 2000.

Legible printing skill is still necessary. Cursive script (I am willing to debate with all comers) is as necessary as a slide rule. It takes too long to learn, considering it will never be needed in the business world these young ones are going to grow up to.
Your previous post did not seem to take a middle ground.

I happen to agree with you that cursive script is not important. Unfortunately, my brother wasn't even taught to print legibly. His school went one step further than you advocate; they abandoned penmanship entirely. Given that many people say insist on "getting her on a keyboard as soon as possible", do you really think schools will take a middle ground or do you think they will follow my brother's school and abandon penmanship entirely?

Penmanship is more important than computer skills at that age because legible handwriting takes so much time to learn. Use of a computer is much easier. The one part that is time intensive is typing, and that can be learned at home with a piece of software.
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