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Old 12-20-2008, 12:47 PM   #1
harryE123
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Upwards of 32gb sd cards and SDHC format (SD 2.0) in the clear for DR?

Hey guys, joined the ranks of owners today as I placed my order. Happy I pulled the trigger, been contemplating the purchase for a long time, though not worth the wait for wifi model. Not so happy that irex will ship priority from the 2nd of January onwards, rather lenghty idea of holidays the got there, what do they think they are, primary school teachers taking a couple of Xmas weeks off?

SO, to all current users, let me just copy paste: Upwards of 32gb sd cards and SDHC format (SD 2.0) in the clear for DR? Also, I hate the crappy fat32 formate (file, folder size limitations in chars etc. ) will the reader recognize ntfs sd cards?

Happy holidays to all.
Har.
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Old 12-20-2008, 08:44 PM   #2
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I'm using a 16Gb SDHC card with no problems, so I'd say the SDHC is OK. Don't know about 32GB - I wasn't aware they were available yet.
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:13 PM   #3
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thanks for the heads up buddy, great news, yes they are available, and soon 64gb will be available too!
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Old 12-21-2008, 04:01 PM   #4
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i can also confirm that 16GB cards are usable. but some hints:

- dr1000 cannot format them. if you try to format, it will format it as 1 gb card.
- only fat32. i tried ext3 but the system didnt recognize it. havent tried ntfs. but i doubt it because if ext3 is not supported on a linux box, i would be surprised if ntfs is (although i guess it is possible).

good luck!

/bazmi.
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Old 12-21-2008, 04:56 PM   #5
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Ok, time for Sunday rant (tm) (c)

This is an SDHC card we're talking about. Designed to be used as portable, interchangeable storage. It is NOT an SSD, there is a reason why those cost a lot more for comparable capacity.

So the very good reason these cards use FAT32: it can be read AND written out of the box on any Mac, Windows or Linux box, in any camera, GPS receiver, MP3 player, eBook reader etc. That's the whole point. The built-in controllers were designed with that in mind, and also because FAT32 is a simpler, more efficient filesystem to deal with.

Ext3, NTFS, HFS+ are all nice filesystems, but there is little point for that kind of I/O overhead (journaling etc.) on a simple device to easily take files from one box to another, again: not an SSD to function as a full-fledged system drive. (Ext2/3 would be the most likely candidate, since the other 2 are proprietary and not working that well on Linux, even if they exist in working form)

From a practical perspective, 32GB cards aren't even up to class6 speeds yet, which isn't exactly fast to start with. Lower capacity cards meet or exceed that speed easily. So perversely the more space you have to write to, the slower it gets. I could afford 32GB cards but can't be bothered to buy them because of that.

16GB is plenty capacity for an -eBook reader-, and the 4GB filesize limit is plenty too. If you have a single PDF file that's more than that, you should rethink your document-deployment strategy (and I doubt it would be usable on the DR1000 if you could fit it on the card) We're not talking about DVD images and HD movies here. I already have thousands and thousands of files on there (a lot of images, since the DR1000 can't read from compressed folders; now THAT would be a -useful- feature to add file-wise)

There will be no 64GB card in SDHC because 32GB is the limit of the spec, just like 2GB was for SD. There will be perhaps a new format in the future, and it will most likely be as incompatible with SDHC as that was with SD (and I have a pile of useless cardreaders lying around to remind me of that)
(They recently announced a 64 Gb (Giga-bit- =8GB) memory chip which means half the chips for the same capacity)

In short 16GB (or 32GB if you have to) in FAT32 are fine. Back up your data if you are worried about reliability. Just because you can do some things doesn't mean it's a good idea. And perhaps the DR2000 will have a whole new level of memory-card technology built in.
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:34 PM   #6
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Great post, no rant at all, thanks makes a lot of sense, points well taken.

that said of course ntfs has overhead but fat32 is also legacy and unwarranted in many cases, it puts a lot of restrictions in file size, directory structure, max filename etc. E.g. I just got me an external 2.5 wd hdd at 320gbs and the bozos had it with fat32, is there any reason for that? Surely not. That said, do you think ntfs would not work on an sd card?

"From a practical perspective, 32GB cards aren't even up to class6 speeds yet, which isn't exactly fast to start with. Lower capacity cards meet or exceed that speed easily. So perversely the more space you have to write to, the slower it gets. I could afford 32GB cards but can't be bothered to buy them because of that."

Do they classify them in classes? what is class 6? You think that would impact their perforance as a storage in the reader? The high gb card's low read rates I mean, because I was worried about that, and was probably looking for a smaller gb card after all an a usb pen drive, smaller yet faster too, although I have to ask you this if you are aware how much of an impact it has, because I rationalized that much of the book content should (ideally....) be buffered in that what is it 128 mb ram of the reader, which should be at worst a few tens of pages, plenty, to not have the card impact the reading speed. Of course such things as browsing the folders could be impacted, logically not that much either...but....

"16GB is plenty capacity for an -eBook reader-, and the 4GB filesize limit is plenty too. If you have a single PDF file that's more than that, you should rethink your document-deployment strategy (and I doubt it would be usable on the DR1000 if you could fit it on the card)"

I am an avid reader and I have wide range of interests for better or worse, so not 16 gb, not even 128 gbs can currently cover my library, of course I could crop it down to the bare essentials but that would be about 32 gb min. Look, take for example maths, some of us here are interested in them, or might need them for uni etc. Just to cover a few rudimentary fields in ebooks you'd need 3-4 texts per field, i.e. about 200 gbs pdfs on average, multiply that by at least 8-9 major areas of maths, it brings it up to min 1.5 gb, now add to that biology, computer science, chemistry, neurosciences, fiction (that alone could be huge)....etc.etc..etc... ADD to that all the html of news, interesting tidbits saved over the years and looking for a decent device to be read on a decent device ADD all the research journal articles too...it doesn't look good on 16gb thingy, and there's just no discussion on a 4 gb one.

"There will be no 64GB card in SDHC because 32GB is the limit of the spec, just like 2GB was for SD."
Is it? Wasn't aware of that, thanks for the heads up.

"(They recently announced a 64 Gb (Giga-bit- =8GB) memory chip which means half the chips for the same capacity)"
Who did?

Last edited by harryE123; 12-23-2008 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazmi View Post
i can also confirm that 16GB cards are usable. but some hints:

- dr1000 cannot format them. if you try to format, it will format it as 1 gb card.
- only fat32. i tried ext3 but the system didnt recognize it. havent tried ntfs. but i doubt it because if ext3 is not supported on a linux box, i would be surprised if ntfs is (although i guess it is possible).

good luck!

/bazmi.
Hey bazmy, just saw your post thanks for the reply!!

Ahhh sh it.....it won't even see ext3? What kind of a linux distro they got working in there? I agree with your conjecture that ntfs is most probably then out of the question....well... I just have to wiki my way through the limitations of fat32 and see to it that my files comply...
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Old 12-24-2008, 05:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harryE123 View Post
E.g. I just got me an external 2.5 wd hdd at 320gbs and the bozos had it with fat32, is there any reason for that? Surely not. That said, do you think ntfs would not work on an sd card?
Well, external HDs are different, but the "bozos" probably had the same thing in mind I mentioned for SD cards: it just works on any OS. I deal a lot with users, and many of them don't even know the concept of filesystem. It's plug and play. If it was NTFS and they connected it to a Mac, they would try to return it as broken. And vice-versa. No such problem with FAT32. If you format the drive for your OS-preferred filesystem (NTFS, HFS+, ext3) you get all the benefits (4GB+ filesize, better reliability through journaling etc.) at the cost of compatibility. It's a trade-off and a choice has to be made, one not necessarily better than the other.
SD card formatting: haven't tried NTFS, but ext3. It works, but unless used with a Linux system, quite useless. Plus the card will wear out quicker because of the I/O overhead. (Again an issue adressed in SSDs through enhanced wear-leveling, at higher cost)

Quote:
Do they classify them in classes? what is class 6? <snip>
"There will be no 64GB card in SDHC because 32GB is the limit of the spec, just like 2GB was for SD."
Is it? Wasn't aware of that, thanks for the heads up.
Wikipedia to the rescue.

Quote:
You think that would impact their perforance as a storage in the reader?...
For the DR1000, I think not so much (the speed is more limited by the CPU trying to render the docs, esp. that crudtastic PDF format). But other devices, like higher-end digital cameras, rather a lot (from my own experience) That being said even 6mb/s isn't all that much.

Quote:
"16GB is plenty capacity for an -eBook reader-, and the 4GB filesize limit is plenty too. If you have a single PDF file that's more than that, you should rethink your document-deployment strategy (and I doubt it would be usable on the DR1000 if you could fit it on the card)"

I am an avid reader and I have wide range of interests for better or worse, so not 16 gb, not even 128 gbs can currently cover my library, of course I could crop it down to the bare essentials but that would be about 32 gb min...
I was referring to a single file, not a library as whole, of course that'd be much more. The question that raises is: does one really need ALL of it at once, at any given moment. With a largish card and a fast reader, it should be possible to have more than enough for at least one day's work. I think a lot of people suffer from "hamster syndrome" where they want to stuff in everything if possible "just in case" (not just electronically, but in the real world too) When ask them if they have ever used such and such thing, the answer is very often negative. The DR1000 is a portable device, not an archival unit. One could always use a real laptop if that was necessary, and maybe throw in a 1.5 TB external drive...

Quote:
"(They recently announced a 64 Gb (Giga-bit- =8GB) memory chip which means half the chips for the same capacity)"
Who did?
Samsung, but it's actually rather old news. The only reference to a 64GB SDHC card I could find was an (uninformed) article's speculation after the release of 32GB cards. BTW. the only class6 32GB I could find was launched at $700 this spring and still retails for around $400 from -reputable- sources. No thanks!

Last edited by allovertheglobe; 12-24-2008 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 12-25-2008, 12:48 AM   #9
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"Well, external HDs are different, but the "bozos" probably had the same thing in mind I mentioned for SD cards: it just works on any OS. I deal a lot with users, and many of them don't even know the concept of filesystem. It's plug and play. If it was NTFS and they connected it to a Mac, they would try to return it as broken. And vice-versa. No such problem with FAT32. If you format the drive for your OS-preferred filesystem (NTFS, HFS+, ext3) you get all the benefits (4GB+ filesize, better reliability through journaling etc.) at the cost of compatibility. It's a trade-off and a choice has to be made, one not necessarily better than the other.
SD card formatting: haven't tried NTFS, but ext3. It works, but unless used with a Linux system, quite useless. Plus the card will wear out quicker because of the I/O overhead. (Again an issue adressed in SSDs through enhanced wear-leveling, at higher cost)"

Oh I see, very explanatory, I thought they introduced some sort of wear leveling algos in the cards too. But we have differing views on the file system issue, I do think they are indeed "bozos" at wd for releasing a drive with fat32 preinstalled which is aimed at windows pcs sincel ALL the software they bundle is for them only, in any case macs can read ntfs with no problem whatsoever.


That's my experience too with digital cameras that a fast card is an absolute must have.

"I was referring to a single file, not a library as whole, of course that'd be much more. The question that raises is: does one really need ALL of it at once, at any given moment. With a largish card and a fast reader, it should be possible to have more than enough for at least one day's work. I think a lot of people suffer from "hamster syndrome" where they want to stuff in everything if possible "just in case" (not just electronically, but in the real world too) When ask them if they have ever used such and such thing, the answer is very often negative. The DR1000 is a portable device, not an archival unit. One could always use a real laptop if that was necessary, and maybe throw in a 1.5 TB external drive..."

True I guess it's a matter of insecurity of being always able to have what you MIGHT need but never get to use anyway with you. But a day's work can include a lot of bulky reference books that you might or might not use but that you ' ll be looking for most possibly, and also it might include "spare time material". I am thinking more of this device as a (mini at least) library where at your leisure you can browse your collection, read a few pages on and off, see what each thing you have is about, get a taste, as a real library would work. I could NEVER do that in a computer, I can't focus reading more than a single page of a book in an lcd screen, if it's light browsing I can do that, but if it's reading with some concentration and intentionality my eyes get too tired too quickly, then again others have said in these forums they have no problem with that...different strokes for diff. folks.

"Samsung, but it's actually rather old news. The only reference to a 64GB SDHC card I could find was an (uninformed) article's speculation after the release of 32GB cards. BTW. the only class6 32GB I could find was launched at $700 this spring and still retails for around $400 from -reputable- sources. No thanks!"

hmmm, yeah the price is pretty steep, I ll settle myself for the 16gb one and complement it with a usb flash drive.
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