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Old 12-13-2008, 03:50 PM   #46
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[QUOTE=BlackVoid;306709
- ebooks do not need colors - why would I want letters in red or yellow???
[/QUOTE]

Altough I don't disagree with your other points, I very disagree with this.

Altough I don't want my letters in yellow, I would love to have a "pen" I could use, to "highlight" text I consider important in yellow...

This is imho one of the main reasons I still use paper to learn stuff altough I'm an iLiad owner.
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Old 12-13-2008, 04:10 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
. Do you use a color monitor on your PC? Would you like it to be monochrome?

BOb
I do not read books on my computer and I do not work / browse the web with my Reader. Sorry but your comparison is not valid.

-----

A 6" screen is not good for books with pictures anyway. For that a premium large size device - like a color Iliad would be best.

eInk is too slow for computers in my opinion and OLED with the backlight is not too ideal for reading.
For learning, paper is much much more practical. You can annotate, navigation is much faster, getting an overview is much easier. You cannot beat paper for learning.

I am more worried about all the different proprietary formats, DRM, narrow selection of books (compared to paper), lack of proper handling of multiple formats, and high prices of ebooks. These are the real dangers for ebook devices and not an OLED computer / reader.

Last edited by BlackVoid; 12-13-2008 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 12-13-2008, 06:20 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVoid View Post
I do not read books on my computer and I do not work / browse the web with my Reader. Sorry but your comparison is not valid.
I assume you mean "in your opinion" it is not valid. Or is it "not valid" because you didn't want to admit to the fact that yes you much prefer your color monitor?

BTW: It wasn't a comparison so much as an association. Ever take the SATs? Oh yea, they dropped these didn't they. You know how they work:

peanut butter is to jelly as ham is to

a. bread
b. cheese
c. bologna
d. blue fish...

The answer is of course blue fish (I mean cheese).

My point was that they incredible fidelity in the difference of the presentation of information on a color monitor compared to a monochrome is compelling. This would associate to the difference between a black text only display to a full color display for an ebook reader.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree here. But I did want to explain my self as it didn't seem clear to you then it probably wasn't clear to others.

BOb
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Old 12-13-2008, 06:42 PM   #49
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Think children's books - I know most of us only read literature, text books, etc. geared to adults, but think about the possibilities of a decent size, color screen for children's picture books. And, the norm for us to read paper back fiction is black text on white paper, but if authors were not constrained by this - if it were no more expensive to include images, and color text, then what might they do w/ that. Textbooks are enhanced by color images, programming texts benefit from color text, etc.

My only concern (I have a sony 505) is how do I replicate what I can do w/ a hardcopy textbook - I can use a finger or bookmark and quickly, easily flip back and forth. I can annotate my text as needed. W/ the Sony, it's simply too tedious to flip back and forth using the bookmark software because of the time it takes to display a page and of course the software behind it.

And, I have a friend who is a college professor of literature - she says students need to have a book that they can freely annotate, highlight, put questions on the margins, etc.
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Old 12-14-2008, 04:16 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
My point was that they incredible fidelity in the difference of the presentation of information on a color monitor compared to a monochrome is compelling. This would associate to the difference between a black text only display to a full color display for an ebook reader.
But, on the other hand, I'd guess that these days most of us have LCD monitors on our computers, and text on a colour LCD screen is nothing like as "sharp and clear" as text on an eInk screen, which is why, for most people, reading from an eInk device is more comfortable than reading from a backlit LCD screen.
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Old 12-14-2008, 11:37 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
But, on the other hand, I'd guess that these days most of us have LCD monitors on our computers, and text on a colour LCD screen is nothing like as "sharp and clear" as text on an eInk screen, which is why, for most people, reading from an eInk device is more comfortable than reading from a backlit LCD screen.
Ok... but we are (at least I am) talking about [future] color eInk screens here. So, I would expect the text to be just as "sharp and clear" as the black text is. To say that you wouldn't want color for any reason just seems a bit silly to me.

For example, I have a color ink jet printer. I find it perfectly aceptable to print black only documents. But, sometimes I don't want to print a color document. (Yes I know, this has nothing to do with ebooks, blah blah blah.)

BOb
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Old 12-15-2008, 01:50 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVoid View Post
I do not read books on my computer and I do not work / browse the web with my Reader. Sorry but your comparison is not valid.
But some of us do, or would if we had a reader/web-browser combination.

Quote:
A 6" screen is not good for books with pictures anyway. For that a premium large size device - like a color Iliad would be best.
Depends on the pictures. A 4x6" screen could show a photograph just fine--and could certainly show bar or pie charts, or sections of wiring diagrams that are color coded. We have a growing number of people willing to watch movies on a 2" screen. Certainly 4x6 can show plenty of useful image content.

I've seen entire conversations take place on Livejournal through 100 pixel icons--people reply with no words, just the picture-of-choice as a comment. Currently, those conversations aren't convertable to useful ebook format.

Black-and-white works just fine for paperback books, and has been the standard for most books for centuries. But that doesn't mean color is a useless affectation; a number of technical texts are fairly useless without it. While most of them have less than 16 and often less than 8 shades, it's still true that for most of us, it's a lot easier to spot the difference between "red" and "blue" than between "75% grey" and "62.5% grey."

Quote:
eInk is too slow for computers in my opinion
Technical limitation; could change drastically in a couple of years. (And remember: people were active online with 1200 baud modems. If the content's worth getting, they'll put up with speed issues--until they fix them.)

Quote:
For learning, paper is much much more practical. You can annotate, navigation is much faster, getting an overview is much easier. You cannot beat paper for learning.
These days, I prefer to learn from PDFs on a computer screen--I can bookmark, annotate, highlight, create links to other pages or files, search for the passage I want, print the images out larger so I can see the fine details, extract a few pages into a separate file for side-by-side comparison, and instantly switch between the document itself and a Google search for references or related content.

I don't expect the general public to take up Acrobat Pro as an educational tool, but that doesn't mean "paper is superior." Paper, these days, is what I tolerate if I can't get an ebook.

Quote:
I am more worried about all the different proprietary formats, DRM, narrow selection of books (compared to paper), lack of proper handling of multiple formats, and high prices of ebooks. These are the real dangers for ebook devices and not an OLED computer / reader.
This, I pretty much agree with. High ebook prices combined with the claim that they're "licenced," not "sold," is going to continue to prevent them from being widely used. Am hoping for a lawsuit that chops holes in DRM methods (a nice precedent that allowed that people are legally allowed to crack it for personal use as allowed by copyright law would be all that's necessary, and it's in the making), and for a couple more publishers to follow Baen's lead and realize that people really will pay a few bucks for digital AND pay more for the paper copy of the same thing. And that many more people will take free digital editions and remember that author & publisher the next time they're in a bookstore, and purchase something else by the same people.
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Old 12-15-2008, 02:40 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
These days, I prefer to learn from PDFs on a computer screen--I can bookmark, annotate, highlight, create links to other pages or files, search for the passage I want, print the images out larger so I can see the fine details, extract a few pages into a separate file for side-by-side comparison, and instantly switch between the document itself and a Google search for references or related content.
Unfortunally none of these is yet possible with any eInk device.

Today I also rather learn with paper than with eInk. But in future this could change if the devices improve.

@BlackVoid and others the article is about why eInk devices are supposed to doomed in the future. You cannot compare this to details they can or cant do right now.
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Old 12-15-2008, 07:42 PM   #54
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I would really like one of the portable computers this guy is talking about. Sure, it's a gutless computer but something with an A4 colour screen on it that runs for a week or two on a charge and can display magazines in colour would be brilliant. So it folds to get to A4 and is hard to read in direct sunlight... big furry deal. The idea of reading on something with a millisecond page turn time and decent library functions thrills me. I assume it will also display black, and white, so I can use it to read black on white books too. I just fear that the author is going "just like a 505, but a computer, and colour", and something like that would have all the disadvantages of the iLiad as well as being expensive (even more expensive than the iLiad). Would a colour 505 at four times the price and 1/100th the battery life really wipe out the 505? Not in my pocket.
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:20 PM   #55
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According to the Wall Street Journal Article, below, Sony considers the Sony Reader a success


Wall Street Journal
December 3, 2008, 8:25 pm

"Sony for the first time disclosed that it sold 300,000 units of its Reader Digital Book globally since the device launched in October 2006.
Steve Haber, senior vice president of personal mobile and imaging division president of Sony’s digital reading business, says the unit growth is above Sony’s expectations... Sony said over three million e-books have been downloaded to the devices in that time."

Source:
http://blogs.wsj.com/biztech/2008/12...ell-after-all/

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(Try News2PDF)
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:56 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
The comments above are entirely missing the key benefit of the current generation of eInk reading devices - their amazing battery life.

I know that I could use a tablet PC to read books on, but I don't want to be reading my books on a device that I've got to worry about recharging every 3h. I want to read on a device where I only have to think about recharging every couple of weeks.

OLED screens and all the rest of it are "power hogs" just like LCD screens are. They aren't a replacement for eInk.
This is true.

It is also true that the manufacturing process for OLED is a glorified ink jet printer, and if they ever enter production they have the potential to swamp most of the display industry by their cheapness of manufacture - recent overpriced public offerings not withstanding.

Widespread use would cause netbooks to take another nose dive in price.
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:34 PM   #57
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The upshot of this is that we are likely to see multiple device architectures suited to the user's need. The blogger worries about Sony, but he doesn't need to: Their readers with the B/W e-ink screens are perfectly suited for paperback reading. In the meantime, OLED or color e-ink will be applied to new readers, probably larger in size, that will be better suited for magazines, textbooks, comics, etc. Sony can always sell both readers, targeting each to a particular consumer. There's plenty of room for devices of both types out there.

OLED may be good, but I suspect color e-ink will prove better for readers... and there are other technologies out there that may still emerge as superior to, or at least competitive with, color e-ink (for example, Qualcom's Mirasol displays).

And although the "fresher" generations may prefer converged devices, there's no reason to assume their device of choice will be small. A larger device, possibly with a built-in phone and included hands-free earpiece, is as likely as a cellphone- or PDA-sized device to be successful.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:01 PM   #58
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In my opinion, the ebook readers - whatever brand it is - is just beginning.
A lot of modern western countries, like germany and most of western Europe, are just starting with ebooks and i know from my own experience, that reading ebooks from a monitor or a small backlit lcd-screen is no pleasure at all.
I move a lot around the world, so my personal library is in storage. to keep on reading, i have my library on a hdd and keep reading with my palmone lifedrive. Devices like that are only a bad compromise to real books and i am really looking forward to christmas eve - and my 505, which is under the tree right now.

I grew up with computers for the last 25 years - so half of my life - but i can't get comfortable reading books or magazines from a computer monitor.

but thats just my 2 cent
take care
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:13 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry001 View Post
In my opinion, the ebook readers - whatever brand it is - is just beginning.
A lot of modern western countries, like germany and most of western Europe, are just starting with ebooks and i know from my own experience, that reading ebooks from a monitor or a small backlit lcd-screen is no pleasure at all.
I move a lot around the world, so my personal library is in storage. to keep on reading, i have my library on a hdd and keep reading with my palmone lifedrive. Devices like that are only a bad compromise to real books and i am really looking forward to christmas eve - and my 505, which is under the tree right now.

I grew up with computers for the last 25 years - so half of my life - but i can't get comfortable reading books or magazines from a computer monitor.

but thats just my 2 cent
take care
harry
I think they're the best thing we have going right now, but I don't think the stand-alone reader is going to be with us for all that long. I don't think the speculation was about whether they are doomed this week. It's more a long term thing. When better screen technology comes along and you can have all you like about e-ink in a device that does a bunch of other stuff, then it makes sense that you will be seeing people using a multi-function device rather than what we have today. Still, I think we're, at the very least, a few years out from that so I don't despair about getting my money's worth out of my e-ink reader before there are any converged devices that appeal to me. No reason for Sony et al to start closing down manufacturing any time soon. Pretty much every gadget I own is "doomed" in this sense. It's just the way of technology.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:33 PM   #60
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It looks like the itunes store is really starting to put out alot of books as apps : http://appshopper.com/books/the-ambe...philip-pullman

http://appshopper.com/books/

This is a pretty interesting development (although its only been a matter of time)

Last edited by volwrath; 12-22-2008 at 11:29 PM.
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