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Old 08-16-2008, 04:09 PM   #1
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ePub - Changing Font size doesn't change page numbers

Has anyone else noticed that when you change font size on an epub book the total page number does not change, however on lrf books when you increase the font size the total page number increases and when you decrease the font size the total page number decreases?
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Old 08-16-2008, 05:52 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by higgs View Post
Has anyone else noticed that when you change font size on an epub book the total page number does not change, however on lrf books when you increase the font size the total page number increases and when you decrease the font size the total page number decreases?
The Sony BBeB renderer counts "pages" in units of "screenfuls of text." ADE counts pages either at specific points in the text specified by a separate "page map" (an Adobe extension to EPUB, although they're trying to get it in the standard spec) or -- more commonly, if there is no page map -- it interprets every 1024 bytes of source-content as a "page." This results in some pretty weird pages (for example, a complex SVG image may cross multiple "pages"), but at least gives consistent page numbers across all screen and font sizes.

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Old 08-16-2008, 06:12 PM   #3
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I think I prefer the Sony BBeb renderer way of counting pages, i think it is more intuitive and gives a better feel of where you are within the book. With the epub books you can end up going from page 3 to page 3 then to page 3/4 etc.
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Old 08-16-2008, 06:30 PM   #4
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Yeah I agree, pages are an outmoded concept that really doesn't have any place in ebooks. A progress indicator (as a % is all that's really needed). Unfortunately, people are going to jump through hoops to try to simulate page numbers to encourage ebook adoption...
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Old 08-16-2008, 06:40 PM   #5
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I kinda like the way DE treat pages, although I hate the fact that the page numbers are displayed in the margin. As for a progress indicator: I don't think that a progress bar is useful, you don't fully grasp how far you are. And a % indicator might not be precise enough and wouldn't give you another useful information of a page system: total # of pages. Since DE pages can flow across multiple screens, I'm not sure we should even call them pages anyway.
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Old 08-16-2008, 07:03 PM   #6
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"Total number of pages" is meaningless for reflowable content. What you really need is an indication of "how long will it take me to read this" This simplest metric is probably (total number of characters)/5000. I just picked 5000 as the average number of characters on an "average" page.
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Old 08-16-2008, 07:04 PM   #7
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I can see where kovid is coming from with the % progress but I still think Sony have it right, ie 'Page X of Y', which automatically updates when you change font size.
This way you can tell exactly where you are within the book and the total number of 'screens' left to read, no matter which font size you are using.
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:24 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by kovidgoyal View Post
A progress indicator (as a % is all that's really needed).
For me, a progress indicator as a % is OK only as a supplement to the way the Sony BeBB system works. I like knowing that I'm on page 560 of 800, even though I realize that refers to screen changes, not to real pages. Telling me that I'm at 70% is kind of meaningless.
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by rhadin View Post
For me, a progress indicator as a % is OK only as a supplement to the way the Sony BeBB system works. I like knowing that I'm on page 560 of 800, even though I realize that refers to screen changes, not to real pages. Telling me that I'm at 70% is kind of meaningless.
I suspect that if you actually use the % measure for a bit, you'll get used to it. But doing screenfulls is fine, since you dont have to jump through any hoops to calculate the number of screens.
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Old 08-16-2008, 09:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovidgoyal View Post
"Total number of pages" is meaningless for reflowable content. What you really need is an indication of "how long will it take me to read this" This simplest metric is probably (total number of characters)/5000. I just picked 5000 as the average number of characters on an "average" page.
A progress bar and % is not enough because you need to know how long the book is. In DE's case, instead of a total number of pages, it is rather a unit based on the size of the flows. It is very close to what you describe kovid.
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:18 AM   #11
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I like the way DE uses the same number regardless of zoom because it makes it much easier if you want to refer someone to a section of the book. It's also useful if you want to look up a page (if you are switching between the paper and electronic versions of a book for example).
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:27 AM   #12
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I think I prefer the Sony BBeb renderer way of counting pages, i think it is more intuitive and gives a better feel of where you are within the book. With the epub books you can end up going from page 3 to page 3 then to page 3/4 etc.
Ditto. I disliked this feature of epub. Very confusing. Page 899-900 arghhhhh....

I downloaded The Count of Monte Cristo from feedbooks and was not impressed by this format.

a. It takes ages to load TOC if the book is long.
b. Page numbering is interfering with Sony Reader's feature.
c. Page numbers on the right side of the text are annyoing.
d. If you read on M or L, the the right side of the screen looks like "broken teeth" or broken paragraphs, something I always tried to avoid but it is very prominent with epub on 6" screen. Maybe on bigger screens it will be less noticeable. Maybe I am used to a uniform look of LRF on the right hand side unless the paragraphs ends. But I will stick to LRF for now.

Quote:
I still think Sony have it right, ie 'Page X of Y', which automatically updates when you change font size.
This way you can tell exactly where you are within the book and the total number of 'screens' left to read, no matter which font size you are using.
I feel the same about page numbering. I absolutely love Sony Reader's page numbering implementation.

Last edited by astra; 08-17-2008 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:35 AM   #13
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A progress bar and % is not enough because you need to know how long the book is.
Exactly.
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:00 AM   #14
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Using pagenumbers for navigating a book isn't very useful, when different fonts or fontsizes affect the content of your screen (which you associate with "page").
Using chapters could be handy for some books, if chapters were build in the bookfiles and some dedicated buttons could serve as go-to-next-chapter-buttons.
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Old 08-18-2008, 06:42 AM   #15
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c. Page numbers on the right side of the text are annyoing.
d. If you read on M or L, the the right side of the screen looks like "broken teeth" or broken paragraphs, something I always tried to avoid but it is very prominent with epub on 6" screen. Maybe on bigger screens it will be less noticeable. Maybe I am used to a uniform look of LRF on the right hand side unless the paragraphs ends. But I will stick to LRF for now.
Both have absolutely nothing to do with ePub as a format, they're choices that DE made.
I don't like having page numbers in the right margin either, but it seems that Sony specifically asked Adobe to keep them, since a page can begin in the middle of the screen.
What you call broken teeth I guess, is due to the lack of justification in the current rendering engine. I really believe that the current crop of readers need both justification and hyphenation to render something that really looks like a book. Some users might dislike using justified text and hyphenation though, and both should be available as options that yo could disable.
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