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Old 08-06-2008, 02:54 AM   #16
HappyMartin
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:12 AM   #17
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I think you worry too much unless there is some reason YOU need to worry??? hmmm....
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:34 AM   #18
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I think you worry too much unless there is some reason YOU need to worry??? hmmm....
Shiver... that's like saying only people who are doing something wrong use encryption or use privacy or lock their doors at night. But, I digress, we have had this conversation before.

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Old 08-06-2008, 10:51 AM   #19
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Shiver... that's like saying only people who are doing something wrong use encryption or use privacy or lock their doors at night. But, I digress, we have had this conversation before.

BOb
Well mainly I was trying to be slighty funny but at the same time trying to say don't worry. Now if your ereader contained a bunch of "questionable material" and you'll be jumpy and nervous at customs then maybe you should worry? Average Joe with the latest quick beach read or Tom Clancy, no worries. Unless you think they'll hassle you for your taste?
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:54 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Darqref View Post
The actual problem with bringing an ebook reader across the US border isn't the reader, per se. The Border Patrol has the right to look at ANYTHING for absolutely NO reason. They can take your laptop (or presumably, ebook reader) and COPY the hard drive, delay giving back to you, and spend all the time they want decrypting anything and examining anything. They're *supposed* to delete all this info if they don't find anything wrong, but of course there are no standards to determine when they are required to do this.

And US courts have repeatedly ruled that this is all legal.

So the risk isn't really having something illegal on your reader, it's that they may "detain" it for a while, especially if they don't understand it.
Gosh .... well, maybe it's time for the country to stop voting the conservative ticket .... just a thought.
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:56 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by TheJohnNewton View Post
Average Joe with the latest quick beach read or Tom Clancy, no worries. Unless you think they'll hassle you for your taste?
Anyone with Tom Clancy on their reader DESERVES to be viciously beaten.
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Old 08-06-2008, 01:53 PM   #22
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It doesn't matter if you have done anything "wrong" or not--they don't even have to have probable cause to confiscate your expensive gadget AND KEEP IT until they decide that you haven't done anything wrong.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:24 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by MaggieScratch View Post
It doesn't matter if you have done anything "wrong" or not--they don't even have to have probable cause to confiscate your expensive gadget AND KEEP IT until they decide that you haven't done anything wrong.
You positive about that?? No probable cause?? Just seize everyone's computers, iPods, and ebook readers for no particular reason ... and keep them??

Just curious, you don't have an actual legal citation for that, do you?? I'd love to see it. Have they also suspended all of our other Constitutional rights and forgotten to tell us??
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:30 PM   #24
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Never mind ... never mind .... Homeland Security, immigration and customs apparently do not consider themselves to be subject to the US Constitution. And, the boobs in the 9th circuit apparently agree with them.

I'm going to have to get that case and read it to see what kind of back handed and twisted logic got them around the 4th Amendment.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:31 PM   #25
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Anyone with Tom Clancy on their reader DESERVES to be viciously beaten.
I think that if you have anything recommended by Oprah on your reader you need to have it taken away and smashed to little bits. But since Oprah also recommended the Kindle, take that for what it's worth (not much at all since Oprah said so).

Just be gald all you iLiad, V3, 500/505, & Gen3 owners that Oprah hasn't recommended such. But then again, only Amazon actually gave her a reader. Someone who could afford one millions of times over gets given one. Says that Jeff is a noodle and needs to be smashed into tiny little pieces.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:34 PM   #26
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Customs people aren't likely to be looking for illicit files on a device, and they won't know or care about stolen electronic files (too hard to search). You're more at risk from someone stealing the device itself, never mind the contents. So just relax, and try not to look so nervous!
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:35 PM   #27
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I think that if you have anything recommended by Oprah on your reader you need to have it taken away and smashed to little bits. But since Oprah also recommended the Kindle, take that for what it's worth (not much at all since Oprah said so).
I disagree. Didn't she recently recommend Pillars of the Earth? 15 yrs late, but still, it's as interesting today as it was when it was first published. Agree with you opinion of all of the rest of her recommendations. What's next, Bridges of Madison County?
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:40 PM   #28
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However .... I just finished reading the actual policy. http://www.cdt.org/security/20080716...h%20Policy.pdf

Having read it ... it states that it still requires probable cause. Further, they are not just confiscating people's laptops, iPods or ebook readers. They are permitted to make copies of the materials, but they are not to send original devices or documents in for examination ... unless there is probable cause to obtain a warrant.

Having now read the policy ... while I think they are still skating on very thin ice, I can see why the 9th circuit upheld it. For the average traveller bringing their music or books across the border ... it's going to mean nothing much at all.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:54 PM   #29
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Here is a summary of the case before the 9th Circuit:

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Monday that border control agents who found child porn on a traveler's laptop didn't violate the man's right to be free from unreasonable searches.

"We are satisfied that reasonable suspicion is not needed for customs officials to search a laptop or other personal electronic storage devices at the border," Judge Diarmuid O'Scannlain wrote.

O'Scannlain went on to say that the defendant "has failed to distinguish how the search of his laptop and its electronic contents is logically any different from the suspicionless border searches of travelers' luggage that the Supreme Court and we have allowed."

He was joined by Judge Milan Smith Jr. and U.S. District Judge Michael Mosman, sitting by designation from Oregon.

The ruling appears to be the second upholding computer searches by border guards. The first, U.S. v. Ickes, 393 F.3d 501, was handed down by the Virginia-based 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in 2005. It involved a man who tried to drive into the United States from Canada with child porn on his computer.

In Monday's case, Michael Arnold, who was 43 at the time, was pulled aside for secondary questioning upon arriving at Los Angeles International Airport from the Philippines on July 17, 2005. Customs agents examined the contents of his laptop computer, Monday's ruling noted, and found "numerous images depicting what they believed to be child pornography."

A federal grand jury later charged Arnold with possessing and transporting child porn and with traveling to a foreign country with the intention of having sex with children.

However, U.S. District Judge Dean Pregerson of Los Angeles suppressed the evidence after finding that customs agents violated Arnold's Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches. He held that they didn't have reasonable suspicion to search the contents of Arnold's laptop.

In reversing, the 9th Circuit ruled that Pregerson erred in holding that a "particularized suspicion" was necessary before a laptop computer could be searched. The court also rejected Arnold's claim that the border agents had exceeded their authority by conducting a search in a "particularly offensive manner."

"There is nothing in the record," O'Scannlain wrote, "to indicate that the manner in which the [customs] officers conducted the search was 'particularly offensive' in comparison with other lawful border searches. According to Arnold, the [customs] officers simply 'had me boot (the laptop) up, and looked at what I had inside.'"

Los Angeles-based U.S. Attorney Thomas O'Brien praised the decision in a prepared statement.

"The government needs to have the ability," he said, "to restrict harmful material from entering the country, whether that be weapons used by terrorists, dangerous narcotics or child pornography."

Marilyn Bednarski, who represented Arnold, said the case has been widely followed "because laptops are so much a part of our lives, and the level of intrusion [allowed by the 9th Circuit ruling] into what we keep stored in our laptops is extraordinary."

Bednarski, a partner in Pasadena, Calif.'s Kaye, McLane & Bednarski, said she plans to seek an en banc review by the 9th Circuit. She said she could understand that customs agents need to turn on a laptop computer to make sure it's not a bomb or a container full of illegal substances. But opening files bothered her.

"What this decision allows [border agents] to do without limits," she said, "is keep opening up and keep reading forever."

The ruling is U.S. v. Arnold, 08 C.D.O.S. 4533.

Attached is the actual ruling
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 0650581.pdf (59.7 KB, 87 views)
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:44 PM   #30
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"There is nothing in the record," O'Scannlain wrote, "to indicate that the manner in which the [customs] officers conducted the search was 'particularly offensive' in comparison with other lawful border searches. According to Arnold, the [customs] officers simply 'had me boot (the laptop) up, and looked at what I had inside.'"
Sounds like Arnold didn't take any precautions as all, then. A dual-boot set-up or some obfuscation (like assigning a bogus file-type to the image files) or encryption would have let him slide through with no problem at all. Guy must have been a bit arrogant to think that he and his laptop were immune from inspection.

Were I to engage in unlawful behavior -- whether or not I agreed with the law -- I think I'd be a bit more paranoid and employ some level of personal protection.
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