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Old 08-04-2008, 10:52 AM   #46
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:13 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by dadioflex View Post
Yes.

The population is growing, access to the internet is growing, so of course piracy of all kinds is growing.

Copyright is assumed to be a god given right these days but it's obviously a relatively recent development in the grand scheme of things. Widespread piracy might be seen as nature's way of fighting a defective mutation.
The times they are a changing.......

The Net will see to that: Welcome to the SPRAWL.......

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Old 08-04-2008, 11:36 AM   #48
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To change the topic - I wonder why publishers who "own" the rights to books don't take advantage of the book pirates by downloading their pirated books, cleaning them up and then selling them to the public. The pirates can't complain to the legal authorities without admitting to "criminal" activities. The publishers would no be committing a crime since they already own the rights to the book and it would probably be less costly for them than scanning, OCRing, and editing. The "honest" public would benefit since a "legal" version of the ebook would be available. Seems like both a win-win proposition and an effective way to combat piracy.
It might be worthwhile in a few cases, but many of the unauthorized ebooks are such a mess that it might be just as easy to start over from a scan. Sometimes whole pages are missing.

There's almost never anything new to say in these threads. I will note only that very few books that I've seen on the darknet aree available as authorized ebooks, but then again, very few books are available as authorized ebooks at all, so I suppose that doesn't mean much. I don't think book "piracy" is particularly on the rise, however, in the sense that I don't think the amount of activity has changed much over the past 5 years or so. It could start to change now with the Kindle and other "popular" ebook readers, but most people don't go fishing around in the darknet when they want something, so I don't think it's going to change all that much. Just my opinion.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:40 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Do you suppose that the RIAA pick names out of the phonebook at random?
Pretty much yes. They assume if you have MP3 files you have stolen them. If you have bittorrent traffic on your internet connection you are stealing songs. They also have unreasonable strong arm tatics. There are tons of articles about this...

http://www.techspot.com/news/26649-r...tigations.html

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Old 08-04-2008, 11:53 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by slayda View Post


To change the topic - I wonder why publishers who "own" the rights to books don't take advantage of the book pirates by downloading their pirated books, cleaning them up and then selling them to the public. The pirates can't complain to the legal authorities without admitting to "criminal" activities. The publishers would no be committing a crime since they already own the rights to the book and it would probably be less costly for them than scanning, OCRing, and editing. The "honest" public would benefit since a "legal" version of the ebook would be available. Seems like both a win-win proposition and an effective way to combat piracy.

How do you convince a head-in-the-sand publisher to use the reading public rather than abuse it? Seriously. Look at what Project Gutenberg US has done with their Distributed Proofreading? Why not hire people to do proofreading the same way? Instead of cash outlay, how about payment in kind? For every 200 proofread pages, you get a e-book (possibly the one you are proofing.) Free labor for the publisher, the rest of the public get to buy more titles, and the proofreader gets as much as they would doing their own proofing, with the bonus of more well proofed books to buy.

If you don't like the scan, let somebody scan it as well, a la PG.

I'd certainly volunteer...
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:58 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by slayda View Post
Harry is correct that those who violate copyright are criminals. There is no requirement that a crime must have a victim.
There may be a problem with other languages. In mine "crimen" and "criminal" are stronger than they are in English, they are closer to murder (although no one has to die). For the English "crime" (any breach of the law) we have a different word: "delito".

Of course, if you are talking in English you should use the English words with the English meanings, but people who don't have English as mother tongue may be prone to some misunderstanding. In this case I might think that "criminal" is a much stronger word than it is.

Last edited by Jellby; 08-04-2008 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:02 PM   #52
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Pirates "criminalise" themselves. Nobody is forcing them to break the law; they make that choice knowingly and voluntarily. To try to shift the "blame" onto somebody else is ridiculous.
Just listened to 'Beyond Belief' on BBC Radio 4 - an interesting discussion about scientific and religious views on free will:

04 August 2008
Free Will
The ability to make free choices has often been seen as one of the hallmarks of being human, but some scientific research suggests that our brains have already determined what we are going to do, before we reach any conscious decision.
What is freewill? And if we don’t have it, how does that affect our understanding of ourselves, God and the world?
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:24 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
There may be a problem with other languages. In mine "crimen" and "criminal" are stronger than they are in English, they are closer to murder (although no one has to die). For the English "crime" (any breach of the law) we have a different word: "delito".

Of course, if you are talking in English you should use the English words with the English meanings, but people who don't have English as mother tongue may be prone to some misunderstanding. In this case I might think that "criminal" is a much stronger word that it is.
Congratulations! You have just contributed something original to a thread on "piracy"! Thank you!

Yes, I suspect this kind of linguistic difference is at the root of many of these debates about the "criminality" of unauthorized ebooks.
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:06 PM   #54
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RIAA admirable? Not!

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. . .which will go after criminals in the same manner that the RIAA has so admirably done in the music world.
Harry, I do not approve of piracy but to say that the RIAA's actions have been admirable is like believing that the world is flat instead of round. it is one thing to go after pirates, another thing to blackmail people from a position of strength, which is what the RIAA does.
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:15 PM   #55
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There may be a problem with other languages. In mine "crimen" and "criminal" are stronger than they are in English, they are closer to murder (although no one has to die). For the English "crime" (any breach of the law) we have a different word: "delito".

Of course, if you are talking in English you should use the English words with the English meanings, but people who don't have English as mother tongue may be prone to some misunderstanding. In this case I might think that "criminal" is a much stronger word than it is.
Your point is well taken. I think the controversy is because even in English, we often do not think of "any breach of the law" making one a criminal. That was why I mentioned the "minor" traffic violations as being crimes.

Harry's use of the word "crime" has a tendency to be like waving a red flag at those who see nothing wrong (or perhaps not bad wrong, i.e. criminally wrong) with "illegal" downloading of ebooks when they may already own the pbook version.
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:19 PM   #56
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I must respectfully disagree. The purpose of the RIAA is not to "be nice" to people, but to punish criminals.
Harry, I do not know how it is in Britain, but in the United States there is no private right to criminal prosecution. I agree that piracy is a crime and should be punished, but in the U.S. only a government agency that has prosecutorial powers can punish criminals by bringing a criminal action to a court, which (i.e., the court) determines guilt, innocence, and punishment.

The RIAA has not sought to punish criminals but to collect money in large enough quantities from individuals to make people think twice. The problem is that the RIAA does it without proof; it does it by simply threatening to overwhelm you with debt -- kind of like a debtor's prison with the RIAA being the jailer.

The RIAA brings no proof to the table, because if it did, it would be much better to turn the evidence over to the legitimate prosecuting authorities -- long jail sentences are a better deterrent than taking money from a 14-year-old who doesn't have any. But the RIAA doesn't turn any evidence over because they do not have any that would stand up in a criminal prosecution. The RIAA abuses the American judicial system because it has the money to do so, not because it is right.
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:22 PM   #57
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For something to be a crime, there has to be a victim.
Sorry, but in the United States that is not correct, at least not in the sense that the victim has to be a person. In the U.S. there is always one victim: the people in the broad sense. Most times there is also an individual victim. A good example of a victimless crime in the U.S. is consensual prostitution; in this case, the "victim" is the people (broadly speaking), not an individual. Many moral crimes are victimless crimes.
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Old 08-04-2008, 03:02 PM   #58
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A good example of a victimless crime in the U.S. is consensual prostitution; in this case, the "victim" is the people (broadly speaking), not an individual.
I'm sorry that this thread has veered so wildly off from the original topic, but regarding prostitution, it is perfectly legal in my country. I do agree that making prostitution illegal creates a victim - the prostitutes.

Last edited by acidzebra; 08-04-2008 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 08-04-2008, 03:52 PM   #59
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I'm sorry that this thread has veered so wildly off from the original topic, but regarding prostitution, it is perfectly legal in my country. I do agree that making prostitution illegal creates a victim - the prostitutes.
And so is downloading books for private use
as long as you don't pass them on
same goes for movies music etc.
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Old 08-04-2008, 06:30 PM   #60
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You may consider it to be OK "morally". You'd struggle, I think, to show that it's "legal" in either the US or the UK.
Law is in principle just moral written down and then added with additional enforcement.

If law goes against moral, because some importan lobbies, or political events, can change it in favor for them, and are in contrast to the common moral feeling then its very likely that there is something wrong with that law.
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