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Old 08-14-2008, 08:51 AM   #556
acidzebra
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I was going to post something, but then I realized you're an idiot.
That's alright, at least I am not an idiot in a country that has a serious creationism/evolution debate going on, to name just one thing.
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Old 08-14-2008, 09:01 AM   #557
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The occasional flared emotions and name-calling aside, I think this is the most productive piracy thread I've seen here. The variety of coherently expressed perspectives is greater than I've seen in other threads, and nekokami's issue-by-issue "points of view" list is worth the thread by itself.
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:33 AM   #558
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I downloaded a file, I still have it on my HD and nobody has ever read a single word from it.
What am I stealing? I can spend 4 years in jail for it...
When you buy a book from a bookstore you pay for it at the time you get it. The bookstore doesn't care whether or not you ever read it. Do you think that it should be different merely because you download the file rather than go into a shop and buy it?

Saying that you think that you should only pay for it if you actually READ it seems a little strange to me!
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:36 AM   #559
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I was going to post something, but then I realized you're an idiot. No other response required.
No, not an idiot. Just young and full of piss & vinegar, not old and worn out from tilting at windmills like us more experienced/disillusioned folks.
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:43 AM   #560
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When you buy a book from a bookstore you pay for it at the time you get it. The bookstore doesn't care whether or not you ever read it. Do you think that it should be different merely because you download the file rather than go into a shop and buy it?

Saying that you think that you should only pay for it if you actually READ it seems a little strange to me!
Why do you find it strange?
When I pay a printed book, I pay the paper, the ink, the cover designer, the photographer, the truck driver, the shop manager... Everybody who has worked to bring me that item.
The author just WROTE the book. His work is in the words written in it. If I don't use them, why should I pay for them?

To pay for what I actually READ, or, more generally, for what I actually USE, sounds more "fair" than "strange" to me. Whatever I'm paying.

Pay Per Use is nothing new...

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Old 08-14-2008, 10:54 AM   #561
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Perhaps you should just buy some paper and a pot of ink and write your own books then!
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:40 AM   #562
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That's alright, at least I am not an idiot in a country that has a serious creationism/evolution debate going on, to name just one thing.

LOL...This is getting personal.......mmmmm
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:00 AM   #563
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I live in a world in which authors I know personally-- published authors with books on the NY Times Bestseller List-- do things like file for bankruptcy and go to Mexico for critical surgery because they can't afford to be treated in the US. I would like to live in a world in which people who tell great stories don't have to worry about food, a place to live, and adequate health care, and good authors (and other artists, and people who support them, like editors) can go hungry all too easily.


Neko.. I usuallly like most of your posts. But this one goes overboard, NY times best sellers who have to file for Bankruptcy? ..... artists who go hungry? or those that support them go hungry? GIVE ME A BREAK!

Writing and reading and making a living at it is a PRIVILEGE NOT a RIGHT!!!

I never hear Steve Jordan or other writers on this site complaining about the above problems, because they realize that they can not rely on writing to "make ends meet". What a joke. How about getting a job. How about writing a better book. how about creating better art?

Maybe these "writers' should go hungry because their work is poor. They could get "a job"...... but maybe that is too difficult and requires effort....
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:02 AM   #564
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US Navy: trillions of USA tax dollars
US Air Force: trillions of USA tax dollars
US Army: trillions of USA tax dollars

Not having to learn Russian: priceless

There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, call the US government.
Actuallly Speaking Russian is Priceless. It is a beautiful language. I hope that you speak a second language Nate the great.. It helps the world look greater..
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:20 AM   #565
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Actuallly Speaking Russian is Priceless. It is a beautiful language. I hope that you speak a second language Nate the great.. It helps the world look greater..
I'm functional in Spanish, but my German is rusty. (On the plus side, I'm fluent in JavaScript as well as Klingon.)
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:33 AM   #566
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Actuallly Speaking Russian is Priceless. It is a beautiful language. I hope that you speak a second language Nate the great.. It helps the world look greater..
Definitely different (even when you're not fluent).
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:39 AM   #567
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Neko.. I usuallly like most of your posts. But this one goes overboard, NY times best sellers who have to file for Bankruptcy? ..... artists who go hungry? or those that support them go hungry? GIVE ME A BREAK!

Writing and reading and making a living at it is a PRIVILEGE NOT a RIGHT!!!

I never hear Steve Jordan or other writers on this site complaining about the above problems, because they realize that they can not rely on writing to "make ends meet". What a joke. How about getting a job. How about writing a better book. how about creating better art?

Maybe these "writers' should go hungry because their work is poor. They could get "a job"...... but maybe that is too difficult and requires effort....
You don't have to agree with me. I'm thinking of a specific author who has 19 books in print, including some on bestseller lists, who really did have to file bankruptcy and lose his house due to medical bills. He did have a full-time job, up to the point that he got laid off, wrote a book, and started pulling in enough money to make it worthwhile to write full-time instead. Until the medical bills rolled in. Writers don't get health insurance through their publishers.

Again, I don't think piracy has anything to do with this author's troubles. The system is broken (in a number of ways). My point was simply that "fighting the system" by taking copies of books without paying for them, if it has any effect whatsoever, is likely to hurt people who are already being hurt by the system-- the content creators themselves.

You can rail on all you like about how no one "deserves" to be paid for work completed, and I agree. But I also think no one "deserves" to receive copies of work someone else has done, without giving something back. I'm not talking about the economy now. I'm talking about being part of a community of artists and people who appreciate art.

This is a more general question, not just directed toward Hidari. If you think the arts should be free, that they're just part of making the world a better place, are you also contributing some form of art to the community (for free)? If art's not your contribution to the community, what is?
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:11 AM   #568
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You don't have to agree with me. I'm thinking of a specific author who has 19 books in print, including some on bestseller lists, who really did have to file bankruptcy and lose his house due to medical bills. He did have a full-time job, up to the point that he got laid off, wrote a book, and started pulling in enough money to make it worthwhile to write full-time instead. Until the medical bills rolled in. Writers don't get health insurance through their publishers.

Again, I don't think piracy has anything to do with this author's troubles. The system is broken (in a number of ways). My point was simply that "fighting the system" by taking copies of books without paying for them, if it has any effect whatsoever, is likely to hurt people who are already being hurt by the system-- the content creators themselves.

You can rail on all you like about how no one "deserves" to be paid for work completed, and I agree. But I also think no one "deserves" to receive copies of work someone else has done, without giving something back. I'm not talking about the economy now. I'm talking about being part of a community of artists and people who appreciate art.

This is a more general question, not just directed toward Hidari. If you think the arts should be free, that they're just part of making the world a better place, are you also contributing some form of art to the community (for free)? If art's not your contribution to the community, what is?
Neko, I think this gets to a more fundamental question, "What is art worth?". This is both an individual choice and depends on how much "free" time, money, effort, etc. you have to spend on it.

To a starving person, art is worthless. To the extremely wealthy, art may be worth millions.

To a color blind person, color, pictorial art may be less than worthless. I've seen acclaimed "Art" in museums that, IMO, wouldn't have been of any worth at all. Likewise, much on what Harry (and many literary minded folks agree) thinks is great literature, I don't think is even worth the effort of reading. And yes, since I got a college degree, I have read some of it.

We each place our own value on the arts & we each support them as we think they deserve. E.g. I wouldn't not pay anything to go to some musical concert but ZP was ecstatic to go to a Tom Wait concert (I had never heard of him before she mentioned him) I don like music and purchase it but would be very bored to do nothing but sit in a large crowd and listen to music.

Some of us have little or no talent in creating "Art" or what others see as art. I've seen pictures of yvanleterrible's (I think it was) woodwork which to me is art but others might consider it just a semi-functional object.

What might help the "Arts" more is to induce people to attempt to creat art. This way the would find out how difficult it really is and might be more supportive. As an example, I never tipped waitresses very much & felt socially pressured to do even that much until I had a job that depended on tips. Now I am more reasonable (some might say more generous, others less stingy) with tips.

So, bottom line, some people who "pirate" ebooks might just not value them (or be able to afford them) as much as you or I do. Later in life when they have more wealth, they may become the leaders of the community in supporting the "Arts". Always remember, the "Arts", while necessary to a well balanced psyche, are not necessary to survival and come about in communities which have the luxury to create them.

'nuff preaching. I can too easily take either side of this discussion. I guess that makes me ambivalent. Definitively too long winded. I apologize for the rant.
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:13 AM   #569
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You don't have to agree with me. I'm thinking of a specific author who has 19 books in print, including some on bestseller lists, who really did have to file bankruptcy and lose his house due to medical bills. He did have a full-time job, up to the point that he got laid off, wrote a book, and started pulling in enough money to make it worthwhile to write full-time instead. Until the medical bills rolled in. Writers don't get health insurance through their publishers.

Again, I don't think piracy has anything to do with this author's troubles. The system is broken (in a number of ways). My point was simply that "fighting the system" by taking copies of books without paying for them, if it has any effect whatsoever, is likely to hurt people who are already being hurt by the system-- the content creators themselves.

You can rail on all you like about how no one "deserves" to be paid for work completed, and I agree. But I also think no one "deserves" to receive copies of work someone else has done, without giving something back. I'm not talking about the economy now. I'm talking about being part of a community of artists and people who appreciate art.

This is a more general question, not just directed toward Hidari. If you think the arts should be free, that they're just part of making the world a better place, are you also contributing some form of art to the community (for free)? If art's not your contribution to the community, what is?
good answer Neko. sorry for your friend. I wish you had attributed that problem to a specific writer..then I would have understood. I guess you meant to..but it looked general to me....

I just find 'too many artists' expecting to be a professional in an artistic field. My 7 years in Russia may not help my views.I have friends who are doctors making only 100 dollars a month and then I hear about "writers" being without money and how they deserve to be paid for their art...So..the irony is a bit too much ..... no offense intended above. I hope your friend recovers well...

suffice to say...I am a socialism fan myself..
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:16 AM   #570
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Good points, slayda. I certainly don't think people who don't read (or listen to music, or look at paintings) owe those content creators anything. They may choose to support the arts in a general way, on principle, but it's a very different situation than someone who enjoys the arts but feels no obligation to pay the artist.

What I was trying to get at is that I sometimes hear people justifying their behavior by railing against capitalism... which is fine, but working alternatives to capitalism all involve "paying back" by some other means. There's no free lunch, no matter what economic system you use. Not in the long run, anyway.
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