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Old 08-13-2008, 12:24 PM   #541
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What I can't accept is the morality of downloading without appropriate compensation for the author.
Downloading or reading?

I said I downloaded a book not legally available without reading it (I still have it in my HDD, though).

Am I doing wrong?
Did I steal something?
From whom?


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Old 08-13-2008, 12:24 PM   #542
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For what it's worth, I'm a socialist too, but I live in a world in which authors I know personally-- published authors with books on the NY Times Bestseller List-- do things like file for bankruptcy and go to Mexico for critical surgery because they can't afford to be treated in the US. I would like to live in a world in which people who tell great stories don't have to worry about food, a place to live, and adequate health care. Heck, I'd like to live in a world in which no one has to worry about these things. But I don't. I live in a world in which most people seem pretty attached to the idea of ownership, wealth is unevenly distributed to the point of being ludicrous, and good authors (and other artists, and people who support them, like editors) can go hungry all too easily.

Given those things, I don't think it's right to read books without being part of a system that pays for them. You can get creative about how you pay back, of course. Set up a CafePress t-shirt store for your favorite author, or an Amazon store so they might start to get a cut of even used book sales. Campaign your local library to buy their books, or buy copies of books and donate them to the library. See if you can get one of their books added to the reading list for a course at your local school or college. Get together with like-minded folks in your area and raise money to invite your author out for a book-signing and speaking engagement. Send cash. Or even cookies.

If you can't afford to do any of those things, consider at least writing your favorite author a postcard saying how much you enjoy their books. That won't pay the rent, but kind words do help one keep warm nights. And make a commitment to yourself that someday, when you can afford it, you will sponsor authors or other artists, to the extent that you can afford it.

Or ignore all this advice. I'm talking about my own ethics here, after all. As HarryT points out, these are decisions we all have to make individually.
Nekokami, I am most definitely not a socalist, but I see these same problems in we (formerly) salaried I.P. workers (programmers, engineers, ect.) just as much, here in the US. It's not just a problem caused by "piracy". Our media, our government (both major parties), sweep in under the rug, and pretend it doesn't happen...
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:36 PM   #543
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Not only that, but using a vote-based system to "grade" authors is ripe for manipulation through aggressive paid marketing, benefiting those with the deepest pockets the most...
Not if there's a maximum amount payable for each book/writer/year.

Basically, readers pay a monthly fee, proportional to their income.
A sort of Publisher Guild And Writers Society collects it and use the money to produce books and to pay writers.
Readers get books for free from known servers.
Shoppers and printers got books from that same source, and pay an extra fee for each hardcopy they make.
Buyers pay a cover price for hardcopies (it's the extra amount nedeed for pay everyone who worked to that copy, from the cover designer to the guy who cleans the shop at night).
Readers give a feedback on what they read.
Writers get paid periodically according to the number of copies sold / printed / downloaded and the feedback received, until a maximum (say 1.250.000$/year)
Side effect: writers got paid most for what is read, not for what is downloaded. As of now, if a book sells millions of copies its author gets rich even if nobody reads it. And that's definitely unfair.
Intellectual Property and copyright (which lasts a fixed amount of time from first publication or life +1 year, you choose) belongs to the writer and not to some greedy corporation.

The question is: why a writer who get to the maximum will write some more?
My answer is: please, stop writing.
If the only incentive for a writer is money, I can live without her/him.
I think that it's more likely for a Rowling to go there, rather than for a Toni Morrison.
And if we end up with less HP and more Nobel Prize novels (paid with the exceeding from HP), I hardly call it a loss.

The other question is: if you can have a legal multiformat e-book without paying for it, why do you need to pirate it?
And better, if you scanned and OCR'd a book, provided you did a good job, you can put it in the legal circuit and get a discount on your fee. You're no longer a pirate, your good job (and pirate's job is usually good) is rewarded, and writers got paid.

Of course in the real world it won't work.
For two reasons: now publisher decide what readers read. They do it with commercials and by choosing what to print and when. They won't give up on that kind of power.
Greedy writers/publishers/corporations won't agree on a maximum earning. Greedy pirate readers won't agree on a minimum fixed payment. Basically, everybody just want it all. And now.

So in the end, it's the same old story: the strongest rule. And he's always right.
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:51 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by Format C: View Post
Downloading or reading?

I said I downloaded a book not legally available without reading it (I still have it in my HDD, though).

Am I doing wrong?
Did I steal something?
From whom?

I have no issues with you downloading a book that's not legally available as an eBook. I do think, however, that you should buy the pBook so the author gets his just deserts. Just a personal opinion - take it or leave it.

Are you doing "wrong"? That's for you to decide.

Are you breaking the law? Yes - at least where I live you are. There are countries where you wouldn't be. You (presumably) know what the law is where you live.
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:01 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by nekokami View Post
For what it's worth, I'm a socialist too, but I live in a world in which authors I know personally-- published authors with books on the NY Times Bestseller List-- do things like file for bankruptcy and go to Mexico for critical surgery because they can't afford to be treated in the US. I would like to live in a world in which people who tell great stories don't have to worry about food, a place to live, and adequate health care. Heck, I'd like to live in a world in which no one has to worry about these things. But I don't. I live in a world in which most people seem pretty attached to the idea of ownership, wealth is unevenly distributed to the point of being ludicrous, and good authors (and other artists, and people who support them, like editors) can go hungry all too easily.

Given those things, I don't think it's right to read books without being part of a system that pays for them. You can get creative about how you pay back, of course. Set up a CafePress t-shirt store for your favorite author, or an Amazon store so they might start to get a cut of even used book sales. Campaign your local library to buy their books, or buy copies of books and donate them to the library. See if you can get one of their books added to the reading list for a course at your local school or college. Get together with like-minded folks in your area and raise money to invite your author out for a book-signing and speaking engagement. Send cash. Or even cookies.

If you can't afford to do any of those things, consider at least writing your favorite author a postcard saying how much you enjoy their books. That won't pay the rent, but kind words do help one keep warm nights. And make a commitment to yourself that someday, when you can afford it, you will sponsor authors or other artists, to the extent that you can afford it.

Or ignore all this advice. I'm talking about my own ethics here, after all. As HarryT points out, these are decisions we all have to make individually.
Can we also get together with like-minded folks in our area to Tar & Feather writers that turn out really bad books (in our opinion, of course)?

This will provide both positive and negative reinforcement for writers.
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:05 PM   #546
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Can we also get together with like-minded folks in our area to Tar & Feather writers that turn out really bad books (in our opinion, of course)?

This will provide both positive and negative reinforcement for writers.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:13 PM   #547
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I agree with all of your expressed sentiments, as long as you don't contend that these authors went broke due to book piracy
No, I never said this had anything to do with piracy. I don't think piracy has any measurable effect on sales of books (or music, for that matter).

My point was that people who want to rail on about the broken system and how they don't think they should pay x for a book might want to keep in mind that by doing so, they may be denying income to a group of people who really don't have a lot to spare already.

But I'm not so much arguing with the overall effect as with the principle that just because one doesn't personally like capitalism, one is entitled to act as though a socialist system not only would be better, but already exists.

And the truly ironic part is that the author I'm thinking of most in this regard is, in fact, a socialist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tompe View Post
Well, most countries have free adequate health care for everybody. I do not see how the US health care system is related to if people have some right to get paid for the thing they choose to do.
If the books that are being downloaded were written by US authors, whether or not those authors get compensated for each book read may affect whether or not those authors can afford health care.

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Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward View Post
Nekokami, I am most definitely not a socalist, but I see these same problems in we (formerly) salaried I.P. workers (programmers, engineers, ect.) just as much, here in the US. It's not just a problem caused by "piracy". Our media, our government (both major parties), sweep in under the rug, and pretend it doesn't happen...
Again, I am not saying that the money problems of authors are attributable to piracy, and I am well-aware that the problem of adequate medical coverage is widespread in the US-- even among people who are "insured."

Quote:
Originally Posted by slayda View Post
Can we also get together with like-minded folks in our area to Tar & Feather writers that turn out really bad books (in our opinion, of course)?

This will provide both positive and negative reinforcement for writers.
If you want to raise money to invite an author to be tar and feathered, and you think they'll accept the invitation, I suppose....
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:18 PM   #548
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If you want to raise money to invite an author to be tar and feathered, and you think they'll accept the invitation, I suppose....
I'm sure an author of hunting books or the like could be persuaded to doing some live demonstration. Perfect sinergy!
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:45 PM   #549
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Very true, but I honestly can't think of anything more worthy of paying taxes for. Certainly far better (IMHO) to spend tax money on building hospitals than bombs.
US Navy: trillions of USA tax dollars
US Air Force: trillions of USA tax dollars
US Army: trillions of USA tax dollars

Not having to learn Russian: priceless

There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, call the US government.
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Old 08-13-2008, 05:12 PM   #550
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US Navy: trillions of USA tax dollars
US Air Force: trillions of USA tax dollars
US Army: trillions of USA tax dollars

Not having to learn Russian: priceless

There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, call the US government.
Not having to learn Farsi is even better. Nyet?
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Old 08-13-2008, 05:57 PM   #551
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Hm. Try to be the voice of reason? Help with the derailment/provocation?

It's been a long day.
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:34 AM   #552
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US Navy: trillions of USA tax dollars
US Air Force: trillions of USA tax dollars
US Army: trillions of USA tax dollars

Not having to learn Russian: priceless
The 50s called, they want their cold war back. But hey, with some luck, you can start up that crap all over again. Because those terrorist dudes aren't really working out as an enemy you can keep people scared over (ill-funded, ill-disciplined, and of course, the fact that yesterday's "Reagan's freedom fighters" are today's "Bush's terrorists" is going to get noticed by people).

On a side note: the long-term effects of preferring the defense budget over, say, public education for a couple of generations are going to hurt. A lot. But hey, keep 'em stupid and keep 'em scared and you can do what you want, and never run out of cannon fodder as a bonus, right?

Did anyone else have a hearty laugh when they saw Bush (mr. God told me to go to war) condemn Russia for invading a foreign country?

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Old 08-14-2008, 04:24 AM   #553
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I have no issues with you downloading a book that's not legally available as an eBook. I do think, however, that you should buy the pBook so the author gets his just deserts. Just a personal opinion - take it or leave it.

Are you doing "wrong"? That's for you to decide.

Are you breaking the law? Yes - at least where I live you are. There are countries where you wouldn't be. You (presumably) know what the law is where you live.
The question is: does the author deserves it if nobody reads that book? Does she/he have to be paid just for the downloading of the illegal (in my country too) file?
Or it's more likely fair to pay an author for accessing his content, rather than just the publisher's container?



I downloaded a file, I still have it on my HD and nobody has ever read a single word from it.
What am I stealing? I can spend 4 years in jail for it...
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:34 AM   #554
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The question is: does the author deserves it if nobody reads that book? Does she/he have to be paid just for the downloading of the illegal (in my country too) file?
Or it's more likely fair to pay an author for accessing his content, rather than just the publisher's container?



I downloaded a file, I still have it on my HD and nobody has ever read a single word from it.
What am I stealing? I can spend 4 years in jail for it...
You know once upon a time I was into movies. I downloaded them what I could, altough I noticed I never actually watched them. Its a kind "gatherer drive", and I completly stopped once I realized that.

When you download things you are not going to read, first you are doing something wrong. Its roughly the same as e.g. woman -- to be sexiest -- who buy clothes they never gonna wear.

Second how should anyone prove if you are going to read it or not. Its like not wanting to pay in the cinema for a horror movie, because you say well will always close my eyes and hold my hands on my ears eitherway...

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Old 08-14-2008, 07:06 AM   #555
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The 50s called, they want their cold war back. But hey, with some luck, you can start up that crap all over again. Because those terrorist dudes aren't really working out as an enemy you can keep people scared over (ill-funded, ill-disciplined, and of course, the fact that yesterday's "Reagan's freedom fighters" are today's "Bush's terrorists" is going to get noticed by people).

On a side note: the long-term effects of preferring the defense budget over, say, public education for a couple of generations are going to hurt. A lot. But hey, keep 'em stupid and keep 'em scared and you can do what you want, and never run out of cannon fodder as a bonus, right?

Did anyone else have a hearty laugh when they saw Bush (mr. God told me to go to war) condemn Russia for invading a foreign country?
I was going to post something, but then I realized you're an idiot. No other response required.
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