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Old 05-14-2008, 05:10 PM   #31
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Let me rephrase my original statement, because you do make some very good points Steve.

I do not trust Adobe to produce a product that I will want to use or enjoy using.
Course, the product you were using wasn't designed for the purpose you wanted to use it for, so no wonder you were disappointed.

I don't see that as a reason to distrust Adobe.

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Old 05-14-2008, 05:13 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by TheLongshot View Post
Course, the product you were using wasn't designed for the purpose you wanted to use it for, so no wonder you were disappointed.

I don't see that as a reason to distrust Adobe.

Jason
Ummmmmmmm.... I wanted to use Adobe Acrobat or Acrobat Reader to read PDF documents... Isn't that the primary function of Acrobat Reader?
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:19 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
Ummmmmmmm.... I wanted to use Adobe Acrobat or Acrobat Reader to read PDF documents... Isn't that the primary function of Acrobat Reader?
But, the document that was produced as a PDF was NOT designed to be read on the screen. I have to admit, that isn't Adobe's fault.

Did you try to turn reflow view on? That might help alot in this case.

BOb
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:24 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Peter Sorotokin View Post
That story is much more complex then this site presents it.

Do you distrust all vendors who support DRM, then?
Which part is more complicated? That in the days prior to 9/11, federal agents, rather than answer calls about, you know, 19 dudes in Florida who were learning how to fly planes but not land them, instead at the behest of one corporation that made shoddy software, attended a hacker convention, arresting the guy that proved it? Or that after Dmitry, no one else has even thought of trying this move for books? Or, that Adobe backed off from this after the damage was done, and a jury found Dmitry not guilty and the law abhorrent?

I'll confess I don't worry too much about DRM per se, as after all the outcry over Dmitry was such that the Library of Congress approved anti-circumvention exemptions to the Digital Millenium Copyright Act specifically for books.

However there is still very much the possibility that Adobe DRM, an absolute market failure in the wake of Mobizon, can still be used to lock out players from educational markets. But of course you'd need the power of regulation to do that, something that can only be achieved by whispering campaigns and astrotrufing, and not, say, by having programmers do any actual programming. Not that Adobe doesn't love the little guy, but, of course, your own vice president is on record trashing the achievements of self-publishers.

http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/200...ublishing.html

That Astroturfing might be a fear of mine, but then, a former IDPF head, now with Adobe, was just caught lying to a semi-influential mailing list about Amazon's Epub support (Mobizon supports OEBPS 2.0 as a conversion source, like everyone else, and in fact Mobi was the first major ebook software company to do so.):
http://toc.oreilly.com/2008/04/keep-...play-nice.html

Now, with your programmers so busy chatting up folks on blogs, there might be a few weaknesses in the software itself. But that's OK, as despite the fact that, you know, in the age of $5 1 GB SD cards, Adobe's software chokes on a couple hundred K of text, we're told that it's "best practices" to chop every book up (even classics like Moll Flanders or Tropic of Cancer that don't have chapter breaks):
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditio...igital_ed.html

The above site is perhaps my favorite little bit of deception, as of course this failing of Adobe's makes all other means of creating .epub files (the DAISY Pipeline, Mischa's OEB2Epub, whatever Bookglutton's running) untrustworthy... but of course that's the fault of the user, not Adobe.

I'd have more, but the O's might just mount a comeback.
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:28 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
Of course there are non-Adobe solutions to view PDFs. The FoxIt reader comes to mind. I'm sure there are others.

BOb
Yeah sure, but last time I checked Foxit did not reflow documents. Does it now?
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:30 PM   #36
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ProfJulie: DE may well be the best and most efficient PDF reader around. It's not only possible but probable; but I don't really care that much since my preference for any document I want to read is any other format than PDF.
I think most of us prefer to read in any other format than PDF. But unfortunately, in quite a lot of cases PDF is the only format that is available.
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:41 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by ProfJulie View Post
Yeah sure, but last time I checked Foxit did not reflow documents. Does it now?
i'm not sure, but found this in their forum about the mobile version supporting it soon.

http://www.foxitsoftware.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=15370

Which woud be great for the Jetbook since they use the FoxIt reader. They could update to this version it would add alot of value to that device.

BOb

EDIT: Actually found this in the FoxIt Mobile Reader PDF... About the Pro version. Not sure if this cost money or what.

The reflow mode provides the best reading
experience for Pocket PCs because text and
images in PDF files can be easily reflowed to fit
the screen size. It can make PDF documents
easier to read on the small screen of a mobile
device, without the need to scroll horizontally to
read each line of text.

http://www.foxitsoftware.com/solutio...leSolution.pdf

Last edited by pilotbob; 05-14-2008 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:41 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfJulie View Post
I think most of us prefer to read in any other format than PDF. But unfortunately, in quite a lot of cases PDF is the only format that is available.
Actually, that's the challenge Peter Sorotokin should take up. To try and make PDF something other than people's last choice of format.
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:48 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
i'm not sure, but found this in their forum about the mobile version supporting it soon.

http://www.foxitsoftware.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=15370

Which woud be great for the Jetbook since they use the FoxIt reader. They could update to this version it would add alot of value to that device.

BOb
Bob; I'd been looking for your review of the jetBook. But with the potential of the Mentor, is the jetBook still that good a value?

5 inch lcd at $349.99 list compared to 5 inch eInk at less than $200?

Nice to know they use FoxitPDF but I never saw your review listed to see if it was worth it.

And, unless the Mentor turns into vaporware, I think I'll wait until they release the 5 inch Mentor and potentially save myself at least $150.
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:08 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by silkpag View Post
That in the days prior to 9/11, federal agents, rather than answer calls about, you know, 19 dudes in Florida who were learning how to fly planes but not land them, instead at the behest of one corporation that made shoddy software, attended a hacker convention, arresting the guy that proved it?
I guess there is no way for me to argue with this kind of reasoning...

Quote:
Not that Adobe doesn't love the little guy, but, of course, your own vice president is on record trashing the achievements of self-publishers.

http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/200...ublishing.html
The post says basically that if you want to sell several thousands copies you still need to get a publisher involved. How that is trashing?

Quote:
That Astroturfing might be a fear of mine, but then, a former IDPF head, now with Adobe, was just caught lying to a semi-influential mailing list about Amazon's Epub support (Mobizon supports OEBPS 2.0 as a conversion source, like everyone else, and in fact Mobi was the first major ebook software company to do so.):
http://toc.oreilly.com/2008/04/keep-...play-nice.html
Of course, Nick was talking about native EPUB support with no conversion to a vendor-specific format. You need that if you want to move the same book between, say, a cell phone, PC and dedicated eBook reader device.

Quote:
But that's OK, as despite the fact that, you know, in the age of $5 1 GB SD cards, Adobe's software chokes on a couple hundred K of text.
Not that amount of storage in the card helps with a lack of RAM and CPU cycles...

Quote:
we're told that it's "best practices" to chop every book up (even classics like Moll Flanders or Tropic of Cancer that don't have chapter breaks):
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditio...igital_ed.html
Remember the goal is to make it work well on hand-helds. Yes, with more coding it is possible to handle very long chapters even on the devices and we'll get there eventually, but short runs will work better on all devices and all viewers.

Quote:
The above site is perhaps my favorite little bit of deception, as of course this failing of Adobe's makes all other means of creating .epub files (the DAISY Pipeline, Mischa's OEB2Epub, whatever Bookglutton's running) untrustworthy... but of course that's the fault of the user, not Adobe.
Let's see. We try to use the standard format. There are limitations and gotchas that we have encountered and we spend time documenting and discussing those. Others use a format of their own and in many cases keep all the info to themselves. You are telling me that we are somehow evil and shutting others off?

Quote:
Now, with your programmers so busy chatting up folks on blogs, there might be a few weaknesses in the software itself.
That's the most polite way to say "shut up" that I know. I guess I'll follow your advice.


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Old 05-14-2008, 11:43 PM   #41
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Nice, an Adobe developer intimately involved with ebooks shows up to discuss with us (what a great opportunity to hear from the "real" source!). Given Peter's post, blog, etc it is clear he is a key member of the DE team, all of which have obviously been working their arse off to bring us EPUB and reflowable PDF on the Sony reader, and content portability with DE -Today! Does anyone congratulate him for his recent achievement? Encourage ongoing support of open standards? Perhaps even, gasp! thank him? No, some wackjob chases him off while the rest of us sit here like we were at the Coliseum. I'm ashamed. We all have such an attitude of entitlement that it is sickening.

Peter, If you are still listening. Thank You! This is huge for publishers small and large. And huge for me since I love my Sony Reader. DE is not perfect, but I understand it is a 1.0 effort, and I can't wait to see 2.0. Huzzah!
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:33 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by nonsavante View Post
Perhaps even, gasp! thank him? No, some wackjob chases him off while the rest of us sit here like we were at the Coliseum. I'm ashamed. We all have such an attitude of entitlement that it is
Perhaps the audience is silent, 'cuz the something ain't gibing.

Example:

Quote:
Of course, Nick was talking about native EPUB support with no conversion to a vendor-specific format. You need that if you want to move the same book between, say, a cell phone, PC and dedicated eBook reader device.
Bogaty:

Quote:
What .epub really gives publishers is leverage. They can say to their vendors and channels, "ok, I'm now only giving you .epub and you better either provide software that reads .epub or provides an automatic conversion from .epub to Y format."
Again, Amazon does provide automated conversion of .epub; has since the beginning. It's an effort to defraud, or at best mislead.

On McCoy:

Quote:
The post says basically that if you want to sell several thousands copies you still need to get a publisher involved. How that is trashing?
'Cuz it's obviously untrue. Amazon's Kindle store, the only democratic one, has this Stephen Windwalker guy:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/digital-text/

And he's at 15, 20k books sold by now. In four months. At a set-up cost of $0 (well, maybe he had to buy a Kindle). With no outside help; and apparently no editing. I'll wager his net against any O'Reilly "building .epub" manual you could name.

Then there's the Real Soon Now:

Quote:
Remember the goal is to make it work well on hand-helds. Yes, with more coding it is possible to handle very long chapters even on the devices and we'll get there eventually, but short runs will work better on all devices and all viewers.
Kindle's been around since December. There was maybe a time, when they couldn't stock Kindle, that it would have been really good to come out with DE for Sony Reader... that time was December. Kindle's in stock, and Adobe's still sorting through issues.

Quote:
Let's see. We try to use the standard format. There are limitations and gotchas that we have encountered and we spend time documenting and discussing those. Others use a format of their own and in many cases keep all the info to themselves. You are telling me that we are somehow evil and shutting others off?
I'm saying that every single business line of Adobe, the method is pretty much:
  • Postscript--"Own" the standard, get folks using it, add enough "extras" to lock in most users to Adobe's software.
  • PDF--"Own" the standard, get folks using it, add enough extras to lock in most users to Adobe's software.
  • Flash--"Own" the standard, get folks using it, add enough extras to lock in most users to Adobe's software.

Gee, what do you think they're trying to do with .epub?

But nonsavante, what's ludicrous about this whole spiel is that Adobe clearly does not own the standard. The de facto standard is mobipocket; and Adobe is in no position to be veering away from the guidelines or fudding the competition.

Obviously this fact is recognized in other circles. I mean heck, Publisher's Weekly didn't even cover Digital Book 08, despite BEA not being for another week or two, but maybe the silent crowd is reflecting the fact that something about .epub smells not quite right.

If I'm banned, have a day.
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:46 AM   #43
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nonsavante,

Thank you for your kind words.

Perhaps, I did not express myself clearly: I am not going to continue that particular discussion, but it's not like I am leaving this forum: there is too much interesting things going on (and I am not offended if someone tells me that my software or my company or my company's file format suck).

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Old 05-15-2008, 01:49 AM   #44
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yes! we should be greatful for another player in the DRM market!

I barely had it installed, with no books in it at all, not even trying to buy a book with it, and already it starts bugging me that I should sign up to adobe-DRM, while trying to turn being able to read my own ebooks on multiple computers a great new feature.

Huzzah, indeed!
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:59 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by silkpag View Post
http://toc.oreilly.com/2008/04/keep-...play-nice.html
Now, with your programmers so busy chatting up folks on blogs, there might be a few weaknesses in the software itself. But that's OK, as despite the fact that, you know, in the age of $5 1 GB SD cards, Adobe's software chokes on a couple hundred K of text, we're told that it's "best practices" to chop every book up (even classics like Moll Flanders or Tropic of Cancer that don't have chapter breaks):
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditio...igital_ed.html

The above site is perhaps my favorite little bit of deception, as of course this failing of Adobe's makes all other means of creating .epub files (the DAISY Pipeline, Mischa's OEB2Epub, whatever Bookglutton's running) untrustworthy... but of course that's the fault of the user, not Adobe.
Peter explained why multi-flows are necessary months ago (on this forum too). That's the reason why I switched the ePub output from Feedbooks to multi-flow. Aside from Adobe or Feedbooks, anyone else could do the same as long as they use elements that indicate the subdivision of a book, or use some page-break CSS properties. It only took me a day or two to change this on Feedbooks.
But I agree: for some books it's almost impossible to divide them into multiple flows. For example, open a book from Proust: you won't find a single page break and they're barely divided into 2 or 3 parts.
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