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Old 04-25-2008, 04:42 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by soilwork View Post
Could you clearly state what your claim is in your own words without citing others? I think I already refuted what I think it is your claim, but you seem to raise the same issue all over again.
Citing others is an important feature to me And if I guess what I think you said, I refuse your refute.

If you only look at the relative "utility" (btw: I also refute the utility concept as a tautologic issue, but nevertheless) : The "I get more of the same money next year than this year" argument, *is* an infinite regress absurdum, because you can continue this thought process year after year. (under the condition we don't expect the market to fall apart or other catastrophes ruining economy.)

What far more holds true is your "willingness to pay" which is an individual issue. If current devices are too expensive for you, than don't buy one. When market evolves you might get your time in future... If you have something better to do with the money, do something better with it. If you think the "utility" you get by buying an iLiad is worth the 650€, then buy one, its really that simple. Yes I know you will refute this, we can go more complicated than that... like I expect to use the device 4 years, before I'll buy a better product from the market. So for 1 year the iLiad costs me 210€ or 17€ per month. Again the personal question when new devices comes out is: using the iLiad one year against having nothing one year worth me 210€? Or will the 3 years overlapping of better use when a new device will be able to do more until I buy the next device compensate that? How much is uncertainty involved in all that?

As Harry I will say this is an just now early-adopter market. If you want to belong to the early adopters do, its cool to once be one of the first of a new generation of devices, but be aware that it comes with drawbacks..

Really we can argue now about utility, marginal utility on and on, but we cannot tell somebody else what to do, it is his or hers personal decision.
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Old 04-25-2008, 05:20 AM   #32
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If you only look at the relative "utility" (btw: I also refute the utility concept as a tautologic issue, but nevertheless) : The "I get more of the same money next year than this year" argument, *is* an infinite regress absurdum, because you can continue this thought process year after year. (under the condition we don't expect the market to fall apart or other catastrophes ruining economy.)
This will hold true if you assume that
- the person's life is infinite
- the person is trying the get the best value possible by choosing only once in his life.
- the person does not discount the future utility
If any of these conditions are not true, your logic falls apart.

For example, if a person has a certain cutoff, he can make purchase quite certainly in the future. Think about a person who will buy whatever e-ink like device with 9+ inch screen and less than 700$. Do you really think this person should wait forever or several years as you quoted? Given current market and technological evolution, if someone think so, I will doubt his sanity.

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If you think the "utility" you get by buying an iLiad is worth the 650€, then buy one, its really that simple.
No, it is not that simple at least for some people. You are comparing the utility of Iliad with the price. When you shop grocery, do you buy the first item you see as long as the price is reasonable? As we compare competing products in the market, some people may compare the current alternative and future alternative.

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but we cannot tell somebody else what to do
If you think I am doing that, you are mistaken. I consistently said that some people may be better off waiting depending on various factors. The 'some people' does not seem to include you and I am NOT implying that you should. I am constantly telling that there are other people who think different and they may be better off not buying the current alternative and they don't necessarily have to have indefinitely. Whether each person belongs to 1) better-waiting-for-next group or 2) buy-right-now group, each person should decide depending on their evaluation of product/probability/... and so on.

Last edited by soilwork; 04-25-2008 at 05:23 AM.
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Old 04-25-2008, 06:02 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by soilwork View Post
This will hold true if you assume that
- the person's life is infinite
- the person is trying the get the best value possible by choosing only once in his life.
- the person does not discount the future utility
If any of these conditions are not true, your logic falls apart.
No, thats was exactly the paradox I pointed out.
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Think about a person who will buy whatever e-ink like device with 9+ inch screen and less than 700$.
Exactly what I said, I think we disagree only on the surface If your willingness to pay does not include 650€ for 8" the answer is obvious. (again assuming for a person where only screensize and price matters).

I do strongly disagree about the implied, that any near future new device will be better in all topics. Even if it would be out now, and the uncertainy factor 0, it would just be another device in the list, and one would have to weight out factors what is more/less important to him or her to decide which to buy. Its still uncertain if the Astok can scribble or not. If it can't it IMHO won't be exactly in the same market segment than the iLiad and would far more match to the Kindle, Sony, segment, where its price isn't exactly competitive, only the screen size an outstanding factor.

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Do you really think this person should wait forever or several years as you quoted? Given current market and technological evolution, if someone think so, I will doubt his sanity.
If a person reacts depressed, because 6 months later there is a better device out than the one he just bought, yes IMHO he should right now stay away from eReader market.

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When you shop grocery, do you buy the first item you see as long as the price is reasonable?
As sidemark, When I shop at the grocery I do NOT care about future items, I want my bread and milk today

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I consistently said that some people may be better off waiting depending on various factors.
I agree with you. Can I have the last word now please?

Last edited by axel77; 04-25-2008 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 04-25-2008, 12:35 PM   #34
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I do strongly disagree about the implied, that any near future new device will be better in all topics. Even if it would be out now, and the uncertainy factor 0, it would just be another device in the list, and one would have to weight out factors what is more/less important to him or her to decide which to buy. Its still uncertain if the Astok can scribble or not. If it can't it IMHO won't be exactly in the same market segment than the iLiad and would far more match to the Kindle, Sony, segment, where its price isn't exactly competitive, only the screen size an outstanding factor.
I am not implying that a near future product will be better in every aspect. Almost certainly in several years, but probably not with the right next future product. For example, I agreed that touch screen of Astak/Netronix will may not offer as good as scribbling (if at all) as Iliad.
Except for the first sentence about 'implying' that I did not intend, I do agree with the rest of your words.

Quote:
If a person reacts depressed, because 6 months later there is a better device out than the one he just bought, yes IMHO he should right now stay away from eReader market.
Or he should not buy anything. Anyway, you are talking about a totally different person from what I have in mind here.

Quote:
As sidemark, When I shop at the grocery I do NOT care about future items, I want my bread and milk today
Fair enough. Since you are talking about survival items, delaying may not be an option. Risking death by starvation or buy something now is not a particularly hard decision to make.

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Can I have the last word now please?
Apparently not.
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Old 04-25-2008, 01:47 PM   #35
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if you can afford it, buy it

iMHO the Iliad is the best device around at the moment. The large screen and 16 grey-levels mak it very suitable for "normal" sized (pdf) books and teksts with images.

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Old 04-29-2008, 02:33 PM   #36
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hmm, what did any of the past 2 pages have to do with the Iliad reading pdfs...
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:58 PM   #37
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hmm, what did any of the past 2 pages have to do with the Iliad reading pdfs...
Now the discussion is more about whether to buy Iilad right now or wait for future alternatives.
If you need the best e-ink device for PDF available right now, Iliad is the best device without any doubt.
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Old 10-03-2008, 05:17 AM   #38
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I think I might be proving someone's point here. I had more or less made up my mind to purchase an iLiad when I accidently came across information about the Astak Mentor. And guess, what? I have decided to wait for that one to come out.

As far as I am concerned, this market is still relatively new and I'd rather wait than rush off to buy something I might compare and regret later. But that's just me.

Now, did someone mention Papyrus...?
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:28 AM   #39
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The best in April was the iRex iLiad. The best today is the iRex DR1000. By about next May, there will be several more choices with a large EInk screen one of which might be the Astak Mentor.
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Old 10-03-2008, 06:05 PM   #40
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The best in April was the iRex iLiad. The best today is the iRex DR1000. By about next May, there will be several more choices with a large EInk screen one of which might be the Astak Mentor.
Oh come on. Currently Astak is the last company I expect to get something usefull of. Note how the 6" device already was a hugh flop. And a *lot* more expensive than Robertb announced it, to generate the hype first place, actually just being a stupid clone, not even any more cheaper than the original.

Trick me one, shame on you, trick me twice, shame on me.

Its everybodies own decision, but already by looking at the recent history I'd be very carefull to trust any of that Astak announcements,

The current question should IMHO be the new Sony or iRex... I'd wouldn't know for which one I'd currently decide if I wanted a new device...

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Old 10-03-2008, 07:13 PM   #41
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Oh come on.
I should probably have put might in bold text to emphasize that it is uncertain. I do think Astak might have a relatively inexpensive 9.7" device by next May, but my primary point is that there will be several new choices by then. May is a long time to wait though.
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Old 10-03-2008, 07:17 PM   #42
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I should probably have put might in bold text to emphasize that it is uncertain. I do think Astak might have a relatively inexpensive 9.7" device by next May, but my primary point is that there will be several new choices by then. May is a long time to wait though.
I'd say it might have a 9.7" by May. However I'd be very very very very very wary that it actually really is any inexpensive. On the 6" they failed by long any of their price hype. In the last announcement its just as expensive as any other 6" reader on the market.... So make several big "mights" when it goes about the price.
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:13 PM   #43
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Plastic Logic Reader can be a good alternative

Well, not sure about when (or whether) Astak will release 9.7 inch reader but we have other looming alternatives such as Plastic Logic Reader expected in early 2009.
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:14 PM   #44
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I wouldn't be so optimistic. Rememeber original expected date for Hanlin V9? Readius? Astak Mentor?
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