Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book Formats > ePub

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-03-2013, 06:08 AM   #1
AlexBell
Wizard
AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
AlexBell's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,335
Karma: 3943904
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Launceston, Tasmania
Device: Kindle3, Kobo Touch, Sony PRS T3, Nexus 7, iPad mini
A problem with ADE?

A publisher for whom I design ebooks has asked me to ask about a problem in one of the ebooks I've designed for her. The material in the attached screenshot images is under copyright, but she has given me permission to display it.

The problem is that when she looks at one section of the ebook with ADE the sentences seem to run together, particularly when there are quotation marks. When I look at the same material with the Sony desktop reader, a Sony ereader, a Kobo Touch, an iPad with iBooks and with Marvin, and the calibre reader I don't see any problem.

Has anyone else seen a similar problem? Can anyone suggest how I can fix it? The publisher and I think it is an ADE problem, but we'd like to be sure before releasing the ebook on an unsuspecting world.

I have attached an image of a screen shot of a flash fiction story read with ADE v2, and an image of a screen shot of the same story read with the Sony desktop reader.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ADE sample page.jpg
Views:	125
Size:	126.0 KB
ID:	116120   Click image for larger version

Name:	SonyReader.jpg
Views:	126
Size:	36.0 KB
ID:	116121  
AlexBell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 06:47 AM   #2
Jellby
frumious Bandersnatch
Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Jellby's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,310
Karma: 4898871
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spaniard in Sweden
Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura
It looks like the font is simply too tightly spaced/kerned.

Can you select text in ADE and check whether there is actually a space before/after the quotation marks?

Try with an embedded font. It might be just the way it is with the default ADE font.
Jellby is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Advertisement
Old 12-03-2013, 08:16 AM   #3
Tex2002ans
Fanatic
Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 539
Karma: 562971
Join Date: Jul 2012
Device: Nook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
It might be just the way it is with the default ADE font.
Looks like that is correct. I tested it on my end and got this:

Click image for larger version

Name:	ADEKerning.png
Views:	120
Size:	38.2 KB
ID:	116124

Looks like it is tight on the "smart" double quote and the "smart" single quote.

I attached a test EPUB as well.
Attached Files
File Type: epub KerningTest.epub (1.9 KB, 20 views)
Tex2002ans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 12:50 PM   #4
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,475
Karma: 19300555
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Aura H2), Sony PRS-650, Sony PRS-T1, nook STR, iPad 1, iPhone 5
My suggestion is to embed a different font and see how that goes.
JSWolf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 07:16 PM   #5
AlexBell
Wizard
AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
AlexBell's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,335
Karma: 3943904
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Launceston, Tasmania
Device: Kindle3, Kobo Touch, Sony PRS T3, Nexus 7, iPad mini
Thanks to you all.

I really don't want to embed fonts - I'd rather give the user the opportunity to choose his or her own preference.

Is there a way to change the kerning - either in ADE or in the ebook's stylesheet? I had a quick look at your test ePub, Tex200ans, and will open it up to see if I can work out what you did.
AlexBell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 11:13 AM   #6
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,475
Karma: 19300555
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Aura H2), Sony PRS-650, Sony PRS-T1, nook STR, iPad 1, iPhone 5
One thing I suggest is turn off sans-serif. It's not a nice font to use as the main body font. A Serif font work best.
JSWolf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 12:00 AM   #7
Tex2002ans
Fanatic
Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 539
Karma: 562971
Join Date: Jul 2012
Device: Nook
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBell View Post
I had a quick look at your test ePub, Tex200ans, and will open it up to see if I can work out what you did.
Well that was just a quick EPUB I tossed together to show off the problem as your initial post. It is ALWAYS good to have code samples, so that everyone can work/mess around with.

I must admit, I never noticed this issue in ADE before (I just use it to do a very cursory glance at the EPUB to make sure nothing is overly broken). I do all my testing on actual devices (my old ancient Nook + Mantano on the cell phone).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBell View Post
Is there a way to change the kerning - either in ADE or in the ebook's stylesheet?
Hmm, I do not believe there would be any way to do this to be device/font-agnostic.

If you care about it THAT much, you can do as others have said and embed a font.

I would just chalk it up to crappy ADE font and not worry about it.
Tex2002ans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 01:14 AM   #8
GrannyGrump
Persnickity Nitpicker
GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
GrannyGrump's Avatar
 
Posts: 570
Karma: 2673214
Join Date: May 2011
Location: JAPAN (US expatriate)
Device: Sony PRS-T2, ADE on PC
Quote:
problem is that when she looks at one section of the ebook with ADE the sentences seem to run together, particularly when there are quotation marks
Does this mean that this problem does NOT appear *throughout* the book, but only in certain sections?
GrannyGrump is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 02:08 AM   #9
AlexBell
Wizard
AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
AlexBell's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,335
Karma: 3943904
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Launceston, Tasmania
Device: Kindle3, Kobo Touch, Sony PRS T3, Nexus 7, iPad mini
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrannyGrump View Post
Does this mean that this problem does NOT appear *throughout* the book, but only in certain sections?
Yes, there is a poetry section in which there are a few poems with a few quotation marks in which the problem does not show, and a flash fiction in which the problem does show.

The only difference between the poetry section and the flash fiction section is that I have used this CSS for poetry:

div.verse {
margin: 0;
padding: 0.75em 0 0 0;
} /* Sets top margin and indent for poetry verses */
div.verse p { text-indent: -2em;
margin-left: 2em;
text-align: left;
margin-bottom: 0;
padding: 0;
}

The rest of the stylesheet is the same for both sections.

I should have mentioned that the stylesheet for this ebook is virtually unchanged from that used in other ebooks for the same publisher.
AlexBell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 02:53 AM   #10
Tex2002ans
Fanatic
Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Tex2002ans ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 539
Karma: 562971
Join Date: Jul 2012
Device: Nook
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBell View Post
Yes, there is a poetry section in which there are a few poems with a few quotation marks in which the problem does not show, and a flash fiction in which the problem does show.

[...]

The rest of the stylesheet is the same for both sections.
Again, this is where code will matter. I just used that CSS in an expanded Kerning Test (attached to this post), and I still see the issue has not changed.

Click image for larger version

Name:	KerningVerseCSS.png
Views:	61
Size:	60.1 KB
ID:	116221

If you spot an area where this issue does not happen, we will need more tests/code/examples!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBell View Post
I should have mentioned that the stylesheet for this ebook is virtually unchanged from that used in other ebooks for the same publisher.
I took a look through a bunch of my EPUBs in ADE, and see the same exact kerning issue with those smart quotes.

I have been using the same CSS for a LOOONG time, and do not do anything fancy (just some indentation, bold, italics, margins here and there).
Attached Files
File Type: epub KerningTest2.epub (2.8 KB, 18 views)
Tex2002ans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 03:34 AM   #11
AlexBell
Wizard
AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.AlexBell ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
AlexBell's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,335
Karma: 3943904
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Launceston, Tasmania
Device: Kindle3, Kobo Touch, Sony PRS T3, Nexus 7, iPad mini
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post
Again, this is where code will matter. I just used that CSS in an expanded Kerning Test (attached to this post), and I still see the issue has not changed.

Attachment 116221

If you spot an area where this issue does not happen, we will need more tests/code/examples!



I took a look through a bunch of my EPUBs in ADE, and see the same exact kerning issue with those smart quotes.

I have been using the same CSS for a LOOONG time, and do not do anything fancy (just some indentation, bold, italics, margins here and there).
Thanks again for the Kerning test and your other comments.

I'll see what I can do about getting the whole ePub to you. It's copyright, and not mine.
AlexBell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 03:43 AM   #12
GrannyGrump
Persnickity Nitpicker
GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
GrannyGrump's Avatar
 
Posts: 570
Karma: 2673214
Join Date: May 2011
Location: JAPAN (US expatriate)
Device: Sony PRS-T2, ADE on PC
It does seem as though the ADE default sans-serif font is mostly to blame for this. (I never view in sans-serif, so this is news to me also).The default SERIF font seems to me to be fine.

See attached screenshots for comparison of ADE screen with default serif vs. sans-serif text fragment using smart quotes.

(I see Tex already posted a screenshot, but the zoomed image to compare on these might be helpful, I hope)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ADE-sans-serif-test.png
Views:	49
Size:	33.4 KB
ID:	116222   Click image for larger version

Name:	ADE-Serif-test.png
Views:	56
Size:	32.0 KB
ID:	116223  

Last edited by GrannyGrump; 12-05-2013 at 04:01 AM.
GrannyGrump is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 04:09 AM   #13
JSWolf
Resident Curmudgeon
JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JSWolf ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
JSWolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,475
Karma: 19300555
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts
Device: Kobo Aura H2), Sony PRS-650, Sony PRS-T1, nook STR, iPad 1, iPhone 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrannyGrump View Post
It does seem as though the ADE default sans-serif font is mostly to blame for this. (I never view in sans-serif, so this is news to me also).The default SERIF font seems to me to be fine.
Problem is though that different versions of ADE use different fonts. So the best way to make sure the quotes are correct is to embed a font that will work no matter which version of ADE is used.

Last edited by Jellby; 12-05-2013 at 04:18 AM.
JSWolf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 04:23 AM   #14
Jellby
frumious Bandersnatch
Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Jellby ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Jellby's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,310
Karma: 4898871
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spaniard in Sweden
Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBell View Post
The only difference between the poetry section and the flash fiction section is that I have used this CSS for poetry:

div.verse {
margin: 0;
padding: 0.75em 0 0 0;
} /* Sets top margin and indent for poetry verses */
div.verse p { text-indent: -2em;
margin-left: 2em;
text-align: left;
margin-bottom: 0;
padding: 0;
}
That (the bold part) may be the significant difference. The rest of the book is probably justified, which apparently alters the default word spacing (or you are being unlucky and find too many shrunk lines). Does it change anything (in the non-poetry part) if you modify the window width?
Jellby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2013, 04:42 AM   #15
GrannyGrump
Persnickity Nitpicker
GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.GrannyGrump ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
GrannyGrump's Avatar
 
Posts: 570
Karma: 2673214
Join Date: May 2011
Location: JAPAN (US expatriate)
Device: Sony PRS-T2, ADE on PC
@JSWolf: Of course, you could also assume that users who read with the default sans-serif are accustomed to it, and know what to expect and how to interpret its appearance.

Wouldn't embedding a main body-text font make it difficult for users who want sans-serif? Or who just don't like the font you choose to inflict on them?

PS: @Jellby, when I check with align-left, the sans-serif is still more tightly kerned than the serif font. Maybe it is just a feature of that font...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ADE-Sans-serif-test-alignLEFT.png
Views:	50
Size:	36.6 KB
ID:	116225   Click image for larger version

Name:	ADE-Serif-test-alignLEFT.png
Views:	47
Size:	33.5 KB
ID:	116226  

Last edited by GrannyGrump; 12-05-2013 at 04:58 AM. Reason: add screenshots
GrannyGrump is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
help please - ADE problem paola Kobo Reader 1 05-28-2013 06:15 PM
Problem with ADE mlewis78 ePub 4 10-07-2011 07:04 AM
Strange problem with ADE DianNC ePub 8 09-09-2011 04:55 PM
ADE problem gudrun45 Sony Reader 6 02-24-2011 11:59 AM
Problem with ADE pdf styxx374 PDF 1 07-25-2010 10:56 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:26 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.