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View Poll Results: Should the KoboTouchExtended calibre plugin enable side-loaded KePub reading stats?
Yes - I want them at any cost 29 28.16%
Yes, and I promise to be careful when syncing with Kobo 29 28.16%
Yes - I have a different reason 1 0.97%
I don't care about KePub reading stats 11 10.68%
No - I buy/sync most of my books from Kobo 3 2.91%
No - I think it would be too confusing or cause too many problems 19 18.45%
No - I have a different reason 1 0.97%
I don't use the KoboTouchExtended plugin 10 9.71%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-13-2013, 12:50 AM   #16
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In the test version I was given, you had the option to decide whether to enable the stats. I'm quite sure that if the stats version is generally released that it will still function that way, so it will be your choice to enable the stats. And yes, the default was NOT to enable the stats.
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Old 11-13-2013, 03:33 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Uschiekid View Post
I don't use your plugin, but have at various times thought about using it (and have tried it out a couple times), so take that into account when reading my opinion.

I think that if you include the stats while these conditions exist, you should branch your plugin into 2. One as it is now. One with the stats. Provide the first one as it is now, through calibre, and provide the 2nd one as a beta (and not in calibre's list of plugins), much as davidfor did when he first was developping KoboUtilities. Then the people who don't go to any bother figuring out the implications are much less likely to get their hands on the more problematic plugin and cause a lot of headache with their complaints of things you have so logically laid out in the OP.

I think it's also important to note, that there are probably people who like the plugin as it is, even without the stats for other features that it can provide (layout, footnotes, etc). And there may be people who don't want the risks or problems associated. This would ensure both camps are happy and getting the most out of your plugin.

Now, I realise updating 2 plugins with potentially very different code could be a dealbreaker for my idea. I don't write code and don't in any way think you are obligated to do any more than you want and feel is a good use of your time. So feel free to dismiss this idea altogether. If the existing plugin could stay basically as is (don't know how much you have to change each kobo fw update), and you could branch out and put most of your time in the new plugin, that might be a workable solution as well.

Thanks for the heads-up about what this change would entail as I have been following the progress with a lot of interest.
my thoughts exactly, though written well :-)

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Originally Posted by jgoguen View Post
Poll created. And I've updated the first post with information that may change some people's opinions so please re-read the first post and ask for any clarification on anything you aren't certain about! If you're going to choose a 'yes' option I want you to be as informed as possible about the issues in using this feature.
I love your plugin, it is essential for my non-fiction reading, but I also have a fair amount of books bought on Kobo, and syncing is important to me. Having said that, I think I don't know what stats we are talking about, as I am not sure I see stats (besides the info within a book with the column chapters etc) even for Kepub - so any pointer to what we are talking about would be appreciated. Or are we talking about Reading life?

I would have no problem if your plugin would allow as default not to enable the stats so that those who wanted could keep using your plugin "nature" and enjoy it.

As always, thanks for this wonderful plugin!
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:37 AM   #18
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The stats I'm referring to are the in-book detailed stats. Go into any book you purchased from Kobo and tap the bottom of the screen to bring up the bottom menu bar. In Firmware 2.10.0, on the bottom right will be an icon that looks like a bar graph, tapping it will show detailed information including a bar graph showing the length if each chapter, how much time is estimated for completing the current chapter, and how much time is estimated for completing the next chapter.
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:34 AM   #19
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Hi,
I like your plugin and use it for all of my ebooks. Now I understand the difficulties of enabling stats, I wouldn't use it and would prefer to have the choice to use your plugin the way it is at the moment.
I'm happy to see the remaining pages of the chapter, I don't need the rest of the stats.
One word (or a few more) to the Kobo bookstore: I would buy all my ebooks from kobo but unfortunately their selection of German ebooks is still a shame. Even years after entering the German market they don't offer ebooks from major German publishers. So I'm force to cheat on kobo and buy many books from other stores.

Thanks again for the plugin and the work you have done!
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Old 11-13-2013, 02:36 PM   #20
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As I use the side-loaded reading stats more and more, I find more and more issues. And as I read the "please don't do this" posts and talk to people on either side, I'm more and more convinced that this should be abandoned. For those of you who really really really want it, because it's literally no additional effort on my part to do so, I'll give you a one-time package that will allow you to use side-loaded reading stats. You will have to set the environment variable KOBOTOUCHEXTENDED_READING_STATS to 'True' (the capitalization on both is important) in addition to setting the option in the plugin preferences. The attached ZIP file can be added to calibre. It will update the existing KoboTouchExtended plugin to version 999.999.999, so you'll never get any future updates (which will not have this functionality enabled) and you'll have to remove the plugin, reinstall, and lose side-loaded reading stats to get updates.

There will be no support from me for anything related to this, and any issues with the plugin will require you to update to a version without the reading stats functionality to be addressed. Yes, I'm deliberately making this needlessly difficult; the potential for issues is too great to allow this to be accidentally enabled. You must also understand that you can't talk to Kobo about any issues unless you remove all side-loaded KePubs added with this plugin version and then reproduce the issue with a KePub purchased and synced from Kobo.
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File Type: zip KoboTouchExtended.zip (27.2 KB, 111 views)
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Old 11-13-2013, 02:57 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoguen View Post
The stats I'm referring to are the in-book detailed stats. Go into any book you purchased from Kobo and tap the bottom of the screen to bring up the bottom menu bar. In Firmware 2.10.0, on the bottom right will be an icon that looks like a bar graph, tapping it will show detailed information including a bar graph showing the length if each chapter, how much time is estimated for completing the current chapter, and how much time is estimated for completing the next chapter.
thanks Joel, those I check quite a lot. I had not realised they had gone with later firmwares (my Mini is still on 2.6.2), so I will be disappointed to lose them. it is a real pity Kobo decided to go this way, but the inconvenience of losing the sideloaded kepubs every time would be a major one for me.

Regardless of this, thanks again for all your wonderful work on this plugin!
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Old 11-13-2013, 03:37 PM   #22
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I also buy a lot of books from Kobo, but also sideload others. My best option at the moment is to just stay on 2.8.1 until Kobo decides they want to put the stats back in.
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Old 11-14-2013, 06:39 AM   #23
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First, thanks for doing the Extended driver.

Since your doing the work, I can't really complain, but ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoguen View Post
As I use the side-loaded reading stats more and more, I find more and more issues. ...
That is disappointing, from previous posts, it looked doable.

I would still like to see something done, maybe a separate utility, or an extended extended driver?
Quote:
... And as I read the "please don't do this" posts and talk to people on either side, I'm more and more convinced that this should be abandoned.
...
I'm not sure why default option of disabling it would cause any concerns.

It looks like close to half the people in the poll wanted the feature, which sounds like a pretty good reason to implement it. It seems like a lot more esoteric features have been implemented.

The only benefit I (personally see) is the kepub features in the extended driver, so I'm just going to stick with the current driver (I'm back a few versions) and firmware, and I'll switch back to epubs (and ditch the extended driver) when I need to update to the latest firmware.

For me, the Extended driver is going to be un-necessary.

Quote:
... the potential for issues is too great to allow this to be accidentally enabled. ...
I'm not sure I understand this thinking. If your afraid of it being enabled, have an idiot (or two) message box(s).

The shelving seems so complex (to the user), yet there is no problem implementing it.

I'm an adult, I don't need a nanny. If I want ease of use, I'll switch to a Kindle.

Quote:
... You must also understand that you can't talk to Kobo about any issues unless you remove all side-loaded KePubs added with this plugin version and then reproduce the issue with a KePub purchased and synced from Kobo.
Aren't we all doing this with kepub's now? With the database when we edit it for shelve problems? When we edit the config files? When we side-load fonts? When we manually load firmware? When we use plug-ins/patches?

Again, let the user decide, don't be a nanny.
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:44 AM   #24
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That is disappointing, from previous posts, it looked doable.
It is doable. I did it I just can't justify the additional maintenance work with all the issues it causes. I have a very new infant at home, my priority must be him, which means I have to be quite careful about what I do that takes more of my time. Any changes at all to the database schema in any of the tables affected would require going over the code to make sure it still works and to make changes to support new DB versions. Conveniently enough, the change from DB version 89 (firmware 2.10.0) to DB version 92 (firmware version 3.0.0) makes a schema change to an affected table.

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I would still like to see something done, maybe a separate utility, or an extended extended driver?
You can use the one-off version I attached to an earlier post. Or, the plugin is open source, you can fork the code and maintain you own plugin or you can maintain the relevant code yourself and send me pull requests for updates.

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I'm not sure why default option of disabling it would cause any concerns.
With the ease of enabling it, and the frequency with which documentation and warnings are ignored, it's a matter of time before someone loses data. If it's in the plugin and I maintain it then I need to support it, and I have no interest in supporting this with all of its issues.

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It looks like close to half the people in the poll wanted the feature, which sounds like a pretty good reason to implement it. It seems like a lot more esoteric features have been implemented.
The poll is only part of the whole picture. As I mentioned, I'd spoken to people on both sides and the "no" people tended to have better arguments considering all users. I (and some of them) would also prefer to try to avoid an antagonistic relationship with Kobo and attempt to build a more collaborative relationship. That hasn't worked so well so far from my perspective, but nothing good ever come from being needlessly antagonistic.

Also, some of those more esoteric options were features that I originally refused to implement or felt were better implemented elsewhere. My opinion of having the code in the plugin is not chiselled in stone, but my opinion of not supporting it is pretty darn close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F View Post
For me, the Extended driver is going to be un-necessary.
This may seem odd, being the person who developed and maintains the driver, but I actually hope that Kobo develops to the point where the extended driver is pointless because they use ePub3 features to provide a consistent and equally-awesome experience for all books rather than maintaining their own proprietary modifications and using an inferior (and unsupportable) renderer for non-Kobo books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F View Post
I'm not sure I understand this thinking. If your afraid of it being enabled, have an idiot (or two) message box(s).
I can't put up message boxes without doing something that halts the entire upload process. The best I can do is require someone to go through some sort of needlessly difficult process, which I've done, but if I leave it in the plugin I have to support it and I'm not willing to support it.

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Originally Posted by John F View Post
The shelving seems so complex (to the user), yet there is no problem implementing it.
The shelving also carries no risk of data loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F View Post
Aren't we all doing this with kepub's now? With the database when we edit it for shelve problems?
Again, no risk of data loss. Worst case scenario, you have to factory-reset your reader and re-sync Kobo books and re-send calibre books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F View Post
When we edit the config files?
Which is easily undone if you make a mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F View Post
When we side-load fonts?
Again, no risk of data loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F View Post
When we manually load firmware? When we use plug-ins/patches?
These are probably the only examples that actually compare. The hardest part about manually loading firmware is knowing which link to click (which requires knowing which reader you have...) and unzipping a file. Using plug-ins and patches is your best example, you (probably?) have no idea what these may be doing to the underlying software and they could cause data loss. But in this case, I look at the number of people installing my plugin and ask how many of them (and how many people in general) use a plug-in/patch that actually carries a data loss risk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F View Post
Again, let the user decide, don't be a nanny.
As a full-time software developer for my day job, there's a line between giving the end-user choice and protecting them from themselves. Again, I'm OK with having the code available and in the plugin, but it's going to be harder to enable than a simple check box and I won't support/maintain it.
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:01 AM   #25
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I voted Yes, I want them at any cost. That said, I don't upgrade, I stay where everything works, in effect, as you wrote:

To have in-book reading stats for side-loaded KePubs using the KoboTouchExtended driver, you therefore must (while you have side-loaded KePub files anyway) disable wireless on your device, never turn it back on, and never again use the Kobo Desktop software. Firmware updates either need to be side-loaded manually.

So my Glo stays on 2.6.1 and I use the extended driver to create side loaded kepubs, which do show the in-book stats. My Mini is on 2.8.1 and also shows the stats. I do have some side loaded epubs on both devices, but find I prefer the kepubs. I like knowing how much time is left.
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Old 11-14-2013, 02:40 PM   #26
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I am wiling to try this but I dont know how to set environment variables for device any ideas? I know how to do the plugin though
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Old 11-14-2013, 02:52 PM   #27
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These are NOT set on the device; rather they are set ON YOUR PC before starting calibre!
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Old 11-14-2013, 05:41 PM   #28
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I forgot I DO use your plugin...only for my Japanese books/newspapers so that everything works properly (otherwise too many problems)...I just haven't added any lately ;D

But even though I like the stats, I'm fairly adverse to the risky so I am quite happy with the other kepub benefits, so keep up the good work!
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:27 AM   #29
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Ah ok. Tried that yesterday and still don't get in book stats. Hmm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I also checked it in the plug in as well as kobo extended.
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These are NOT set on the device; rather they are set ON YOUR PC before starting calibre!
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:29 AM   #30
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I'll give it a go again today. I'm one of those people that then to always fight sleep because I want to finish a chapter so it will be nice to know how much I have left.
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