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Old 11-25-2013, 07:56 PM   #46
gmw
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Originally Posted by ApK View Post
[...]For text document creation, in my book (hehe...book pun), WYSIWYG is King. Easy IS best!
For document production some people suggest that WYSIWYM is best.

Just sayin'.
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Old 11-25-2013, 08:12 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by gmw View Post
For document production some people suggest that WYSIWYM is best.

Just sayin'.
And in matters of all but the most trivial, static content, they're right, of course.
I was exaggerating to make a point...ie, it's unlikely that using LaTeX would produce a BETTER garage sale flyer* than Word would, and the time spent learning to use it for that task would probably better be spent else-wise.

It would be nice if WYSIWYG software knew WYM, and always produced WYRN (What You Really Need.)

ApK

* I was going to say "lost cat flyer" but my mind immediately went here:
http://www.27bslash6.com/missy.html

Last edited by ApK; 11-25-2013 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 11-25-2013, 08:38 PM   #48
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LOL @ poster conversation.

Designers....
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:25 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ApK View Post
And in matters of all but the most trivial, static content, they're right, of course.
I was exaggerating to make a point...ie, it's unlikely that using LaTeX would produce a BETTER garage sale flyer* than Word would, and the time spent learning to use it for that task would probably better be spent else-wise.

It would be nice if WYSIWYG software knew WYM, and always produced WYRN (What You Really Need.)

ApK

* I was going to say "lost cat flyer" but my mind immediately went here:
http://www.27bslash6.com/missy.html
I found that Lyx was pretty good as a WYM/WYRN converter. It turns LaTex into first-approximation visual rendering, and then when you're done you can compile it to PDF for the really nicely tex'd version. I haven't used it recently though. I don't PDF anything anymore since I want reflowable content. It probably has decent output now, but I haven't tried it.
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:55 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by nikkie View Post
I found that Lyx was pretty good as a WYM/WYRN converter.
I'm not familiar with it. I'll take a look. I'm also wondering how to pronounce it.

Also, is WYRN actually a thing? I thought I made it up.




EDIT: regarding pronunciation. I'm sorry I asked:
http://wiki.lyx.org/FAQ/Pronunciation

Last edited by ApK; 11-26-2013 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 11-25-2013, 10:45 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ApK View Post

For text document creation, in my book (hehe...book pun), WYSIWYG is King. Easy IS best!
"Easy" means different things to different people.

I get annoyed when i have to use a wysiwyg application because i have to think about layout too much. "Just make a list already!"
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Old 11-26-2013, 03:22 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ApK View Post
...and an equally as often, geeks will think they know what is best, even when they don't.

It's rarely a matter of taking easy over best. It's a matter of understanding that in many cases, easy is part of what makes something best, and other factors pass a clear point of diminishing returns.
I actually meant, not only in coding; life and decision-making in general. Look at almost any decision-making process. Hell, listen to some friend when they tell you that they have a "hard decision" to make. Nearly all the time, the choice boils down to "what I should do" versus "what I really WANT to do." A huge majority of the time, the latter wins out, having been rationalized to smithereens, and turned, through some pretzel-like contortions, into "what's best." When it comes to using Word (or any other text-creation tool), I hear this all the time, the usual bit being "I need the time to write, I can't take days to learn how to use this program," or, "it would cost me more in time to learn this than it is to pay you to clean it up," or some variant. It doesn't matter that if they learned to use the program properly, it would save them hours and hours of lost time; it's simple rationalization. It's easier not to take the effort and the two hours or so to learn it, so they don't, and then explain at great length why they don't. What usually really slays me, though, is when they then tell me that they are "good at computers." Believe it or not, that's exactly what the person from Friday (the one with the bollixed file associations, who thought that you pushed a button in Kindle Previewer which would "send" the file to KDP--which s/he had already set up, for one book, mind you--and that ADE was going to go WITH it to the KDP and mess up his/her book.).

Or pay attention at any entry-level civics organization. Whether it's a homeowner's association or a town council, etc. Same thing. When you try to get anything done, what's easiest (or best for that individual councilmember) will win out over what's best (or harder) for the town, etc. It's behavior not limited to tech. Politics in most countries isn't screwed up by accident or sheer coincidence...it's human behavior.

Quote:
I learned to code in the days before GUIs and IDEs, but I embraced both. They make me more productive, and allow me to better meet the business needs of my employers, and in the type of apps I write, any less-than-optimized code they generate is totally irrelevant.

For text document creation, in my book (hehe...book pun), WYSIWYG is King. Easy IS best!
Well, not really sure what the GUI discussion, and when you learned to code, has to do with Word, or whether people will learn to use a product or not, but, okay. And, yes, WYSIWYG is great, but off the top of my head, I can't think of an ebook-making program, a real one, that works that way. I suppose it could be argued that iAuthor is WYSIWYG or WYSIWYW...

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Old 11-26-2013, 08:22 AM   #53
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Well, not really sure what the GUI discussion, and when you learned to code, has to do with Word, or whether people will learn to use a product or not, but, okay.
Hitch
I posted the reply shortly after having read references to command line compilers and the like, so I thought we were in the general area of
"optimal/complex vs. good enough/easy." It seems that had faded several pages ago, though.

While you are probably correct on the entry-level civic organizations, it's notable that we see exactly the same sort of thing at high-level civics, like Congress. At the homeowners association level, you may often be right about the motives, but sometimes...and at the higher levels, hopefully more often... the same kinds decisions could honestly be driven by a disagreement over what truly is best, or even the reality that what's best for one large subgroup may be bad for another large subgroup.
It's not always easy for one group to admit that. In fact, the argument that the opposing view is merely taking the easy route, may in fact itself BE the easy route, rather than the much harder route of admitting the other side's point has merit, and each side must sometimes legitimately fight for it's own interests over those of others.

Bringing this back around to topic, the point is, minimalist-type software yielding atomic level control of all aspects may NOT be the BEST approach to all tasks. That two hours spent learning the other software may indeed be a relative waste of two hours with no benefit. Computers are SUPPOSED to make things easier. The particular "things" you want made easier are not the same for all people in all situations.

Last edited by ApK; 11-26-2013 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:26 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ApK View Post
I posted the reply shortly after having read references to command line compilers and the like, so I thought we were in the general area of
"optimal/complex vs. good enough/easy." It seems that had faded several pages ago, though.
Sorry: it's my simple-mindedness. LOL.

Quote:
While you are probably correct on the entry-level civic organizations, it's notable that we see exactly the same sort of thing at high-level civics, like Congress. At the homeowners association level, you may often be right about the motives, but sometimes...and at the higher levels, hopefully more often... the same kinds decisions could honestly be driven by a disagreement over what truly is best, or even the reality that what's best for one large subgroup may be bad for another large subgroup.
Meh. I've watched politics closely for a long time. I find honest disagreement very hard to find. On an individual basis, yes. But on many disputes, it's the issue of one party (particularly) voting their party line as ordered, versus whatever.

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It's not always easy for one group to admit that. In fact, the argument that the opposing view is merely taking the easy route, may in fact itself BE the easy route, rather than the much harder route of admitting the other side's point has merit, and each side must sometimes legitimately fight for it's own interests over those of others.
Possibly. It's hard to know.

Quote:
Bringing this back around to topic, the point is, minimalist-type software yielding atomic level control of all aspects may NOT be the BEST approach to all tasks. That two hours spent learning the other software may indeed be a relative waste of two hours with no benefit. Computers are SUPPOSED to make things easier. The particular "things" you want made easier are not the same for all people in all situations.
I think that some folks really LIKE and LOVE minimalist software, and I say, good for them. And as I said a few times to Katsunami, if he wants to create a minimalist platform, and people adopt it, hey, that's GREAT. Seriously. I'm of the school that if he builds a better mousetrap, people will come to it. That's the way of things. I truly hope it works for him and anyone else that loves markdown and that minimalist approach.

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Old 11-26-2013, 02:51 PM   #55
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Hee-Hee, I used MS Visual SourceSafe for a bit (long long ago) to manage poetry revisions.
From MS Visual SourceSafe to writing on paper with a biro.
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:08 AM   #56
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My first book was written on a typewriter. Now that's minimalist software! (Actually, my inbuilt wetware did the real work.)
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Old 11-27-2013, 08:24 AM   #57
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My first book was written on a typewriter. Now that's minimalist software! (Actually, my inbuilt wetware did the real work.)
Now that was the way to separate those who were serious about their art. If I was still stuck with a typewriter I think I'd still be writing poetry - or I'd have found a way to write shorter stories.
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Old 01-01-2014, 09:53 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Katsunami;2675184

[code
+ My Great Work
+ 10-Part 1
+ 10-Chapter 1
10-Scene.txt
20-Scene.txt
+ 20-Chapter 2
10-Scene.txt
20-Scene
+ 20-Part 1
+ 10-Chapter 1
10-Scene.txt
20-Scene.txt
+ 20-Chapter 2
10-Scene.txt
20-Scene.txt
[/code]

It basically comes down to:
- You create (and name) parts and chapters by creating folders
- You create scenes by writing them in plain TXT files
- They are arranged using priorities (inserting a scene between 10-Scene.txt and 20-Scene.txt is as simple as creating 15-Scene.txt)
- When writing is done, you create the bare-bones (X)HTML or EPUB by running a simple command.
- You can then markup the bare-bones book in a program that can do EPUB-editing.

Would there be interest in something like this?
I use a program that has most of these feature and more. It's a personal info manager called Epim (http://www.essentialpim.com/)

I write the draft using the note system which has a tree structure akin to what you describe, with the upside of being in a single file.

Basically, I create a leaf for the synopsis on top, along with one for me to keep track of random ideas. Then, I proceed with a note per chapter or scene if need be. When I need to have some research data readily available, I simply create a sub leaf and paste it in there.

I love how flexible it is and how easily it lets you manage the organic growth of your draft. You can also pick different icons for your notes. It helps me distinguish the various levels of completeness and urgency.

When you're done, you can export into various formats.

To top it off, you can use the calendar to plan out your writing and promo, and the contacts for the people and websites relevant to your brainchild.
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:49 AM   #59
kennyc
The Dank Side of the Moon
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Now that was the way to separate those who were serious about their art. If I was still stuck with a typewriter I think I'd still be writing poetry - or I'd have found a way to write shorter stories.
Hey! Stop that! I'm hurt!

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Old 01-03-2014, 12:13 AM   #60
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Hey! Stop that! I'm hurt!



Sorry Kenny, that wasn't supposed to be a dig at poetry, it was a dig at my tendency to be verbose. (I don't know why poetry doesn't come to me any more, it's been a very long time, I don't think typewriters actually had anything to do with it.) But you have to admit, if it comes to having to choose between retyping a 1000 word poem or a 100000 word novel, the poem has got to be easier.
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