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Old 10-18-2013, 04:19 PM   #1
ramsaa
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Unhappy Style poetry - line break on verse

Hi, I am stylizing a poetry book that is in spanish, but I am having problems with lines breaks. The problem is similar to this. But in spanish the verses breaks must have a opening bracket ([) before it stars the new line, and also it has to be with right align. For example:

Quote:
This is a first verse and thanks for the bracket
[we know that it is the same verse.
This is a second verse with indent.
I know that for someone this could be a silly problem, but in spanish is the correct way to break verses, can anyone have an idea?

P. S. Obviously the verse breaks when the reader increase the size of the font, or when the verse does not fit on the screen...

Last edited by ramsaa; 10-18-2013 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:32 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramsaa View Post
Hi, I am stylizing a poetry book that is in spanish, but I am having problems with lines breaks. The problem is similar to this. But in spanish the verses breaks must have a opening bracket ([) before it stars the new line, and also it has to be with right align. For example:
Well, you have several problems, and some of the remaining questions aren't clear to me. If the first line breaks, due to font resizing, or small devices, before "bracket" on the first line, is it, too, to be styled with a bracket, and flush left, or is there something different that "should" happen? If you have a very long first line, say, in a printed work, and the line wrap is not the "artistic intent" of the author, but, simply a matter of space, what do you do in print?

Without knowing that, it's hard to say what to do. You obviously will have to create a flush-right style for the indented lines, and you can do a regex to put the brackets in there, permanently (for the deliberately-indented lines), but for the not-deliberately-indented lines, you have other issues, if you need the bracket for those, too--ebooks don't really add characters to themselves on the fly. Not even with pseudo-classes, but I'd have to think about that.

Is it your intent to do this ePUB also for Amazon?

Quote:
I know that for someone this could be a silly problem, but in spanish is the correct way to break verses, can anyone have an idea?

P. S. Obviously the verse breaks when the reader increase the size of the font, or when the verse does not fit on the screen...
Well, I think you may well reach a point soon where you have to tell your client that ebooks don't work like print, and that s/he will have to make a choice; publish or don't. Your alternative is to make each ePUB in fixed-format--one for iBooks,one for Kobo, and if there's a European ebook retailer that has a fixed-format available for self-pubs, for that, also, and do the same for Amazon, if that's in the picture. Otherwise, you have to deal with the (rather endless problem) of "unwanted" line wraps and poets.

I feel for you; we're dealing with one right now we've had in-house since last December, and he just told us to make a boatload of edits to his ePUB, thinking that because the line breaks (as he sees them, without altering the size of his viewing pane or the font) are different, that we "changed" his PDF. So he's added title case to words, and commas, not understanding that this is going to be completely different again when we make the MOBI. I'm hundreds of bucks, if not over a thousand, down on this project, and it's the straw that broke the camel's back--we no longer accept poetry, because it's just not profitable. And the poet-client is never happy. Never. (Or: I should say, sure, we'll accept poetry, if we can make it in fixed-format and charge for it.)

If you'll reply about the unintended line breaks and brackets, I'm sure we'll all have ideas to assist you.

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Old 10-19-2013, 02:50 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
If the first line breaks, due to font resizing, or small devices, before "bracket" on the first line, is it, too, to be styled with a bracket, and flush left, or is there something different that "should" happen?
Yes, the first two lines in the example above are actually the same verse, and are only printed as two lines because of limited space. With a different text width you could have:

Code:
First verse is a long line that could be
            [broken due to limited space
      Second verse shorter, indented.
Code:
First verse is a long line that could be broken due to
                                        [limited space
      Second verse shorter, indented.
Unfortunately, I don't think this is possible with current ebook formats. Even with the full HTML5+CSS you probably need some javascript. (Maybe with ePub 3 and some reader that supports javascript...).

The old mobi format used to have the possibility of right-aligned broken lines (mobipocket.com, see bottom of the page), but without the bracket, and I didn't see it working in the PC reader or in my Cybook Gen3.

For ePub, I made a suggestion 4 years ago, but it doesn't seem anything has happened to it since then...
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Old 10-19-2013, 04:48 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
Yes, the first two lines in the example above are actually the same verse, and are only printed as two lines because of limited space. With a different text width you could have:

Code:
First verse is a long line that could be
            [broken due to limited space
      Second verse shorter, indented.
Code:
First verse is a long line that could be broken due to
                                        [limited space
      Second verse shorter, indented.
Unfortunately, I don't think this is possible with current ebook formats. Even with the full HTML5+CSS you probably need some javascript. (Maybe with ePub 3 and some reader that supports javascript...).

The old mobi format used to have the possibility of right-aligned broken lines (mobipocket.com, see bottom of the page), but without the bracket, and I didn't see it working in the PC reader or in my Cybook Gen3.

For ePub, I made a suggestion 4 years ago, but it doesn't seem anything has happened to it since then...
So:

the bracket itself is the indicator that the line is broken due to lack of space; it's not something "else," e.g., an indicator of emphasis, or something like that.

Yes, I agree with you, Jellby; I don't think it can be done at this time, with the currently-available technolgy (unless, as I said, the book is done in fixed-format, so that it does not reflow). I can't think of any way to effectively create an "if-then" scenario so that the first reflowed letter is preceded by the bracket, I really cannot. Doesn't mean it can't be done; but as you can't wrap the "to-be-reflowed" portion (as we don't know what it is) with anything that would allow any of the trickier things (inheritances, child-ofs, pseudo-elements, etc.) to work...I just don't see it.

Many someone else will come along with better tricks, but if Jellby doesn't know--I don't think anyone does.

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Old 10-19-2013, 09:09 AM   #5
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WARNING! Do not try this at home! Keep out of the reach of children!

Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:ops="http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops" xml:lang="en">
<head>
  <title>Testdoc</title>
  <style type="text/css">
  div.poetry {
    margin: 1em 0 1em 2em;
  }
  div.poetry div.line {
    margin: 0;
    padding-left: 3em;
    text-indent: -3em;
    text-align: left;
  }
  div.poetry div.line:before{
    background-color: white;
    content: "&nbsp;";
    position: relative;
    z-index: -1;
    float: left;
    width: 4em;
    margin-left: -4em;
  }
  div.poetry span.word:after {
    content: "[";
    position: relative;
    z-index: -2;
    float: left;
    width: 0;
    margin-left: 2.5em;
    margin-right: -2.5em;
  }
  </style>
</head>
<body>

<div class="poetry">
<div class="line"><span class="word">Lorem </span><span class="word">ipsum </span><span class="word">dolor </span><span class="word">sit </span><span class="word">amet, </span><span class="word">consectetur </span><span class="word">adipiscing </span><span class="word">elit.</span></div>
<div class="line"><span class="word">In </span><span class="word">sit </span><span class="word">amet </span><span class="word">orci </span><span class="word">eros.</span></div>
</div>

</body>
</html>
It will not work with ADE, and it's not 100% ePub compliant:

- ADE does not support :before and :after pseudo-elements.
- I'd bet ADE does not support z-index either, which is not a required ePub 2.0.1 property.

It's anyway an ugly and unsatisfactory solution:

- The wrapped part of the line is still not right-aligned, but indented a fixed amount.
- It only works with some specified background: white here, needed to hide the bracket in the first part of the line.
- It requires wrapping every word (or every allowed break point) in a <span>.
- It can still fail in some cases.
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:56 AM   #6
ramsaa
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Thanks for your replies.

Hitch, I also do not like to stylizing poetry for EPUB, but I accepted because I thought that it would be nice to have some solution for others proyects. But I realized that may be I was wrong.

Jellby, actually I found that witt JavaScript it can be done, but obviously it won't work for EPUBs. In other hand, I found some neer solution and it goes like this:

Code:
p {
  font-family: Arial, Sans-Serif;
  font-size: 1.25em;
}

.wrap-cont {
  font-family: Courier New, Monospace;
  margin-bottom: 16px;
}

.wrap-cont p {
  background: url(../Images/corchete.png) no-repeat bottom left;
  background-size: 1%;
  text-indent: -100px;
  margin: 0 0 0 100px;
}
And:

Code:
<body>
  <div class="wrap-cont">
    <p>Some_really_long_command line "with parameters" "that just go on and on" " that should all be typed on one line" "but need to be wrapped for display and I'd like the text style to indicate that it has wrapped"</p>

    <p>Some_really_long_command line "with parameters" "that just go on and on" " that should all be typed on one line" "but need to be wrapped for display and I'd like the text style to indicate that it has wrapped"</p>
  </div>
</body>
The image is this:



I do not know if it is a good idea to have this big bracket, or if it would be better smaller.

Now, the client only wants the opening bracket, he does not care the right-align. But as you can see, it does not display well, any suggestion?

Last edited by ramsaa; 10-19-2013 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 10-19-2013, 02:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramsaa View Post
Thanks for your replies.

Hitch, I also do not like to stylizing poetry for EPUB, but I accepted because I thought that it would be nice to have some solution for others proyects. But I realized that may be I was wrong.

Jellby, actually I found that witt JavaScript it can be done, but obviously it won't work for EPUBs. In other hand, I found some neer solution and it goes like this:

Code:
p {
  font-family: Arial, Sans-Serif;
  font-size: 1.25em;
}

.wrap-cont {
  font-family: Courier New, Monospace;
  margin-bottom: 16px;
}

.wrap-cont p {
  background: url(../Images/corchete.png) no-repeat bottom left;
  background-size: 1%;
  text-indent: -100px;
  margin: 0 0 0 100px;
}
And:

Code:
<body>
  <div class="wrap-cont">
    <p>Some_really_long_command line "with parameters" "that just go on and on" " that should all be typed on one line" "but need to be wrapped for display and I'd like the text style to indicate that it has wrapped"</p>

    <p>Some_really_long_command line "with parameters" "that just go on and on" " that should all be typed on one line" "but need to be wrapped for display and I'd like the text style to indicate that it has wrapped"</p>
  </div>
</body>
I do not know if it is a good idea to have this big bracket, or if it would be better smaller.

Now, the client only wants the opening bracket, he does not care the right-align. But as you can see, it does not display well, any suggestion?
Try with this style:

Code:
.wrap-cont p {
  background: url(../Images/corchete.png) no-repeat bottom left;
  background-size: 0.33em;
  text-indent: -100px;
  margin: 0 0 0 100px;
}
As you can see, instead of using a background-size of 1% I am using a size of 0.33 em. In my tests with Sigil worked fine.

Also you could use a .svg image instead of a .png and with "a space" on the right including.

Regards
Rubén

Last edited by RbnJrg; 10-19-2013 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 10-19-2013, 02:59 PM   #8
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Um....something seems to have gone amiss with this image?

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Old 10-20-2013, 02:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Um....something seems to have gone amiss with this image?
The image is an oversized bracket. But if it's going to be a simple square bracket, you gain nothing by increasing the resolution so much, it could be a small ~20 pixel image (would you noticed any pixellation with this particular image?). If it were a round parenthesis or brace, it would be different.

If I understand it correctly, that method would only work with a single "continuation line", with more lines you'd get something like:

Code:
First verse is a long line that
             could be broken due 
            [to limited space
  Second verse shorter, indented.
(note that there should be a bracket before "could" too.)
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:17 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post

Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:ops="http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops" xml:lang="en">
<head>
  <title>Testdoc</title>
  <style type="text/css">
  div.poetry {
    margin: 1em 0 1em 2em;
  }
  div.poetry div.line {
    margin: 0;
    padding-left: 3em;
    text-indent: -3em;
    text-align: left;
  }
  div.poetry div.line:before{
    background-color: white;
    content: "&nbsp;";
    position: relative;
    z-index: -1;
    float: left;
    width: 4em;
    margin-left: -4em;
  }
  div.poetry span.word:after {
    content: "[";
    position: relative;
    z-index: -2;
    float: left;
    width: 0;
    margin-left: 2.5em;
    margin-right: -2.5em;
  }
  </style>
</head>
<body>

<div class="poetry">
<div class="line"><span class="word">Lorem </span><span class="word">ipsum </span><span class="word">dolor </span><span class="word">sit </span><span class="word">amet, </span><span class="word">consectetur </span><span class="word">adipiscing </span><span class="word">elit.</span></div>
<div class="line"><span class="word">In </span><span class="word">sit </span><span class="word">amet </span><span class="word">orci </span><span class="word">eros.</span></div>
</div>

</body>
</html>
It will not work with ADE, and it's not 100% ePub compliant:

- ADE does not support :before and :after pseudo-elements.
- I'd bet ADE does not support z-index either, which is not a required ePub 2.0.1 property.

It's anyway an ugly and unsatisfactory solution:
It's a very nice and elegant solution. We can't get everything and what we can get with your solution is enough for me (and yours is another reason to choose non ADE-based readers ).
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RbnJrg View Post
Try with this style:

Code:
.wrap-cont p {
  background: url(../Images/corchete.png) no-repeat bottom left;
  background-size: 0.33em;
  text-indent: -100px;
  margin: 0 0 0 100px;
}
As you can see, instead of using a background-size of 1% I am using a size of 0.33 em. In my tests with Sigil worked fine.

Also you could use a .svg image instead of a .png and with "a space" on the right including.

Regards
Rubén
I added a padding in order to have a space between the opening bracket and the rest of the verse. And yes, it only appears in the final break line, I am thinking that may be can be solved with repeat-y, but I do not know what I can do in order to not have the bracket on the first line... The code:

Code:
.wrap-cont p {
  background: url(../Images/corchete.png) repeat-y bottom left;
  background-size: 0.5em;
  padding: 0 0 0 .25em;
  text-indent: -100px;
  margin: 0 0 0 100px;
}
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RbnJrg View Post
It's a very nice and elegant solution. We can't get everything and what we can get with your solution is enough for me (and yours is another reason to choose non ADE-based readers ).
I presume that the prevalence of non ADE-based readers is greater in Europe than it is here, but here, that would pretty much limit you to almost nothing that sells commercially.

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Old 10-21-2013, 02:49 PM   #13
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Here in the Netherlands it is mostly Kobo and Sony. Some others like the old BeBook is still found and a small portion of Kindle. I do expect a bigger share of Kindle in the future now it officially sells here, but so far it is mostly Kobo and Sony.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxaris View Post
Here in the Netherlands it is mostly Kobo and Sony. Some others like the old BeBook is still found and a small portion of Kindle. I do expect a bigger share of Kindle in the future now it officially sells here, but so far it is mostly Kobo and Sony.
Sony is ADE based I believe. At least is used to be. Kobo has a lot of ADE in it although the kepub is changed a lot.

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Old 10-22-2013, 03:55 PM   #15
Hitch
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Posts: 2,477
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Device: Kindle2, iPad, KindleFire and NookColor
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
Sony is ADE based I believe. At least is used to be. Kobo has a lot of ADE in it although the kepub is changed a lot.

Dale
Dale:

I thought that, but wasn't sure. Thanks for the info.

Hitch
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break, poetry, spanish, style, verse

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