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Old 10-21-2013, 10:35 PM   #61
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The 3.5" display is great for an audio player. For anything else, it sucks!

Works great for my iPt4, since I only use it for audio.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:32 AM   #62
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It does; but only for the 32GB and 64GB versions. When Apple added the 16GB version to the lineup, they stripped the cam out.
OMG!

It is pretty obvious that Apple is bad, bad.

"A bad banana with a black greasy peel!"

You know the type, my friend.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:38 AM   #63
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This evening, I checked my stock portfolio. Besides the stocks I have actually invested in, I also keep some there that I am considering for investment or at least am interested in for one reason or another.

Apple was up. (Pretty obvious if you think about it.)
Tomorrow (22 October) will be one of those Dckens days.

The best of times, and the worst of times.

The Apple people will be elated, and sorely disappointed at the same time. Beyond the fire circle where the dancing is going on, the Android, Windows, and RIM folks will watch with curiosity and a bit of jealously.

Such enthusiasm! Exorbitant and inappropriate or not!
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:20 AM   #64
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Tomorrow (22 October) will be one of those Dckens days.

The best of times, and the worst of times.

The Apple people will be elated, and sorely disappointed at the same time. Beyond the fire circle where the dancing is going on, the Android, Windows, and RIM folks will watch with curiosity and a bit of jealously.

Such enthusiasm! Exorbitant and inappropriate or not!
I think correct!
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:29 AM   #65
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I've been so busy that I didn't have time to return to this thread earlier, but there are just two things I didn't want to leave hanging:

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I'm afraid your understanding is wrong. iOS developers can choose to design pixel perfect UIs for each screen resolution, and many do, but they don't have to - they have the option to use auto-layout.
OK, that is new since iOS6 only. But before iOS6, Apple had no way to scale their interface. They only had two choices then: pretending that their limited size range was optimal or asking their developers to jump through more hoops. They chose the first option.

Now that they've copied Android's practice and come up with auto-layout, a scalable interface, they can no longer claim to have the ideal pixel perfect layout for every size device. They are less certain what they are going to get from various developers.

At any rate, despite claims to the contrary, for the majority of mainstream Android apps today, there is no loss of quality going from smaller tablets to larger ones. I have used 3 sizes of android devices and don't notice any loss of quality going from 5" to 7" to 9" -- even on Facebook. I don't use Facebook. but I was interested to see if the claims made in this thread that it suffered on a larger tablet were true. I don't see it. Maybe Android scalability had issues in the early days -- with Froyo and Gingerbread -- but Android development has come a long way since.

So my point is, scalable GUIs are fine. And Apple has evidently agreed, belatedly adopting its own version -- Auto Layout.

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Originally Posted by leebase

But let's not delude ourselves into thinking Apple "can't" create a large screen phone. They just simply aren't.
You keep saying things like this and I don't know why. Maybe you just like strawman arguments. As far as I know, no one has even suggested Apple "can't" make a larger phone. I think the bulk of the argument has been they haven't up to now due to a combination of factors -- a little arrogance here, a bit of nearsightedness there, and a whole lot of rigidity everywhere.

I stand by my prediction that they will eventually cave in and go at least 4.5" -- if not 5" -- in the near future.

--Pat
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:10 AM   #66
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OK, that is new since iOS6 only. But before iOS6, Apple had no way to scale their interface.
Incorrect. Before iOS6 scalable interfaces could be built using "springs and struts". It wasn't great (hence the introduction of auto layout), but it did work for some interfaces.

Quote:
So my point is, scalable GUIs are fine. And Apple has evidently agreed, belatedly adopting its own version -- Auto Layout.
That's a bit of radical change in position from
Quote:
every single time Apple puts out a new screen resolution, their developers have to put out a new version of their app that includes another set of artwork exactly scaled to that new resolution.
I'm not saying that all scalable interfaces are bad - I only stepped in to correct the common misinformation that you can't do scalable interfaces on iOS - you can. It's a supposed iOS limitation that many Android advocates try to use to beat up iOS, but it's bogus.

The point is that developers have the choice - you can do pixel-perfect or you can do scalable (nothing forces you to use auto layout). The practical difference between android and iOS is that the difference in number of screen sizes available frequently leads to different choices on the two platforms.

/JB
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:01 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
Incorrect. Before iOS6 scalable interfaces could be built using "springs and struts". It wasn't great (hence the introduction of auto layout), but it did work for some interfaces
Well then either developers didn't know about it or it was impractical to implement. Because when new resolutions were introduced in iOS back then, you had people living with apps that had black bands in areas where apps didn't scale -- a situation Android users never have had to deal with. This wasn't fixed until developers got around to putting out a new version of their app with new artwork to fit the new resolution.

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I'm not saying that all scalable interfaces are bad - I only stepped in to correct the common misinformation that you can't do scalable interfaces on iOS - you can. It's a supposed iOS limitation that many Android advocates try to use to beat up iOS, but it's bogus.
Well then there goes that myth that Apple always has pixel perfect layouts. They didn't always and don't now.

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The point is that developers have the choice - you can do pixel-perfect or you can do scalable (nothing forces you to use auto layout). The practical difference between android and iOS is that the difference in number of screen sizes available frequently leads to different choices on the two platforms.
From a developer perspective, there probably is little difference today in terms of accommodating different screen sizes. If you want your app to accommodate more devices on either iOS or Android you have to add in different artwork to cover all your bases.

From a user standpoint, I don't see the difference either. Apps on Android today are not substantially different from those on iOS in terms of GUI quality. In the early days of Android, there may have been a big difference, depending on the app, but not in 2013.

--Pat
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:47 AM   #68
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Well then either developers didn't know about it or it was impractical to implement.
There's a third possibility - that many developers *chose* not to use it because the small number of screen sizes made it feasible to design optimal UIs for each size.

Quote:
Well then there goes that myth that Apple always has pixel perfect layouts. They didn't always and don't now.
I wasn't aware there was such a myth. It seems that in practice many iOS apps *are* designed with pixel perfect UIs, but it's not a requirement.

Quote:
From a developer perspective, there probably is little difference today in terms of accommodating different screen sizes. If you want your app to accommodate more devices on either iOS or Android you have to add in different artwork to cover all your bases.
We're making some progress! We've gone from a claim that lack of UI scalability is holding back Apple to an admission that there's not much difference between iOS and Android.

As it happens, I believe there still is some difference - if you want to design an optimal UI for each combination of size, aspect ratio and resolution you have more work to do to cover all Android devices than all iOS devices.

/JB
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:05 PM   #69
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There's a third possibility - that many developers *chose* not to use it because the small number of screen sizes made it feasible to design optimal UIs for each size.
Or maybe it was ALL those things. Bottom line is that prior to i0S6, the scalability of iOS was poor and was rarely, if ever, used. You therefore had rough transition periods for users seeing black bands in their apps ... and the lack of easy scalability may have been a factor restricting Apple's implementation of alternative sizes.


Quote:
I wasn't aware there was such a myth. It seems that in practice many iOS apps *are* designed with pixel perfect UIs, but it's not a requirement.
Hmm, you only need look as far back as page 1 of this thread, where you'll see this attempt to perpetuate this myth:

"When Apple went Retina on both iPhone and then iPad, the pixels were exactly twice the resolution in each dimension. Thus apps created for one scale to the other seamlessly. Apple apps are designed pixel by pixel. Android designed for objects to scale and automatically move around to accommodate the wild wild west of screen sizes, ratios, and resolutions."

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We're making some progress! We've gone from a claim that lack of UI scalability is holding back Apple to an admission that there's not much difference between iOS and Android.
More like a qualification. Prior to iOS6, I believe lack of easy scalability did limit Apple. Today, it is not much different.

Quote:
As it happens, I believe there still is some difference - if you want to design an optimal UI for each combination of size, aspect ratio and resolution you have more work to do to cover all Android devices than all iOS devices.
I don't believe the differences are that significant today in terms of scalability. At least not so much as to prevent developers from choosing Android over iOS, which they appear to be doing in greater numbers.

--Pat
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:30 PM   #70
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Prior to iOS6, I believe lack of easy scalability did limit Apple. Today, it is not much different.
That's certainly a more defensible claim than the original one.

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I don't believe the differences are that significant today in terms of scalability. At least not so much as to prevent developers from choosing Android over iOS, which they appear to be doing in greater numbers.
I'd probably agree that few developers choose between iOS and Android based on scalability of UI - there are many much more significant factors.

/JB
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:08 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
That's certainly a more defensible claim than the original one.
They are really not that far off considering for most of its existence, up to the iOS6 introduction, iOS was restricted by its lack of easy scalability. I stand by my original opinion that this was a limiting factor – along with stubborn adherence to dogmatic beliefs and other factors – which restricted diversification until after the death of Jobs.

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Old 10-24-2013, 04:00 AM   #72
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They are really not that far off considering for most of its existence, up to the iOS6 introduction, iOS was restricted by its lack of easy scalability.
We've gone from (paraphrasing) "lack of *any* scalability is *currently* restricting Apple, and *always* has" to "lack of *easy* scalability *was* restricting Apple, but isn't any more".

You may think the difference is insignificant, but I disagree. The first claim is demonstrably factually incorrect, while the second is at least arguable. Personally, I find that factual incorrectness weakens an argument! :-)

/JB

Last edited by jbjb; 10-24-2013 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:49 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
We've gone from (paraphrasing) "lack of *any* scalability is *currently* restricting Apple, and *always* has" to "lack of *easy* scalability *was* restricting Apple, but isn't any more".

You may think the difference is insignificant, but I disagree. The first claim is demonstrably factually incorrect, while the second is at least arguable. Personally, I find that factual incorrectness weakens an argument! :-)

/JB
The argument still stands. It is a fact that prior to iOS6, which includes the bulk of the history of iOS, Apple was restricted by its own software architecture from introducing additional screen sizes.

You have to nitpick in order to find fault with my argument. That's fine with me.

--Pat
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:49 AM   #74
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The argument still stands. It is a fact that prior to iOS6, which includes the bulk of the history of iOS, Apple was restricted by its own software architecture from introducing additional screen sizes.
As explained, that is a case you can argue. However, the presence of springs and struts even before iOS6 does make the degree of restriction debatable even then. For example, I have a springs and struts app which was originally written for the iPhone4. Its UI scaled beautifully to the iPhone5, with no modification required.

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You have to nitpick in order to find fault with my argument. That's fine with me.
If pointing out significant factual inaccuracies is nitpicking, then so be it. I'll leave it for others to judge.

/JB
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:04 AM   #75
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As explained, that is a case you can argue. However, the presence of springs and struts even before iOS6 does make the degree of restriction debatable even then. For example, I have a springs and struts app which was originally written for the iPhone4. Its UI scaled beautifully to the iPhone5, with no modification required.
Which app is that? What version?

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If pointing out significant factual inaccuracies is nitpicking, then so be it. I'll leave it for others to judge.

/JB
I'm fine with that. As I said, the bulk of my statement is correct. And I believe objective observers would agree with me.

--Pat
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