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Old 10-20-2013, 03:56 PM   #46
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I wish some one would line them up & name them in OrderI sooo BTW while I like the term Baby for the smallest Kindle it makes me think its the 1st Kindle Made so I not sure now Which it Really is!
Baby Kindle is Kindle 4 Black Non-Touch screen $69 model that is available now. It is the lightest and smallest that I am aware of in the Kindle lineup.

Sorry about your PW2 Fearindex. I too am sticking with the K4BNT (aka baby kindle) with my reading light built in cover.
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:13 PM   #47
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I wish some one would line them up & name them in OrderI sooo BTW while I like the term Baby for the smallest Kindle it makes me think its the 1st Kindle Made so I not sure now Which it Really is!


Just for you Katie (Kindle 1 & Kindle 2 not included as pics of them aren't easily found on the Amazon website):
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Old 10-21-2013, 01:13 PM   #48
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Just for you Katie (Kindle 1 & Kindle 2 not included as pics of them aren't easily found on the Amazon website):
Nice pic!

Just to clarify to Katie, I know it is frowned upon here, but in many places K5 or Kindle 5 is the baby Kindle. Here on MobileRead, apparently Kindle Touch is called K5.

Wikipedia and Kindle Boards for example call the baby Kindle aka $69 Kindle the Kindle 5, because it is the fifth product named just Kindle without other monikers.
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Old 10-21-2013, 07:07 PM   #49
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:13 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by fearindex View Post
Finally got the international PW2 to compare. I'll post my first-impressions PW2 review on MobileRead as well...

Following my PW1 review, here goes - Kindle Paperwhite 2 (2013) aka PW2 vs. Kindle Paperwhite (2012) aka PW1:

...

Anyway, I'll give the PW2 some time to see how I like it and whether or not I will exchange the unit. I do like the software it runs, it would be nice to be able to enjoy that. Maybe an another go with that clip-on light idea? Then again, the poorer text blackness is still an issue there. Maybe I'll just go back reading books on my excellent $69 Kindle with the official lighted cover...
I thought I owed you guys one more report, so here goes...

Well, I decided to get a replacement for my PW2 - mostly due to its slanted screen and secondarily because of the pin-hole or two. Getting a replacement was a bit hard, because the Amazon support spent the better part of one day forwarding me from one attendant to another - I went through like 15 different people, each time getting to re-explain and most of the time asked for some info or another before being forwarded again - eventually forcing me to try another day. Re-trying next day it was sorted out on the second attendant and I got the replacement quickly.

Turns out, I got a good one. The new screen isn't quite as bright as the first PW2, it is somewhere in-between my PW1 and the first PW2 in brightness, but that's actually a good thing - the light is more even. There is none of the bottom right corner light-leakage and overall the "stage lighting" on the bottom edge of the new unit is the least pronounced of the three. I mean, like on all PW2s I believe, the stage lighting still shows there when you look very closely, but compared to the glare in PW1 it has now practically disappeared. The screen is yellowish like the first PW2, but it is a nice shade. PW1 with the light on looks very blue compared to the two PW2's.

The most important thing is, my second PW2 screen is straight and there are no pin-holes or specks I can see. I can't begin to describe how big of a difference this actually makes. There are no glaring defects with the screen, like there has been with my PW1 and PW2, which takes one major hurdle out of the way of enjoyment. I can now look at the menu without seeing crooked top bars and patchy, uneven corner graphics that really take away from the quality feel - let alone reading slanted text on my previous PWs. As far as what one can expect to get from a PW2, I believe, this unit is a keeper. So, unless something surprising surfaces over the next days, the first PW2 is going back and this one stays with me. Text blackness is okayish, like on all my PWs, clearly less black than my $69 baby Kindle, but it isn't bad. I think the text blackness on the new may be a sliver under the first PW2, but it is okay in both - not great, but okay.

That's the good news. The bad news? Well, the lighting of course isn't perfectly even - and when using the light high up, the text gets that milky look that happens on all PWs. Looking at a lit screen is still more taxing to the eyes in darkness than using a top down reading light that shines more evenly all over. The middle of the screen is still darker than the corners, but on the new PW2 unit this seems more even than before - the edges are more even and the darker area sort of expands more evenly in the middle making it look a lot more natural than the patchiness of either of my older units. For whatever reason, the remaining unevenness of the PW2 lighting seems to bother me much less on the new unit than before. Has it improved enough to cross a mental threshold? I don't know, but I do know it is good enough to keep anyway. The PW1 is actually quite terrible compared to the latest PW2 unit I got, no wonder I didn't get along with it. The first PW2 was still noticeably bad in my eyes (although better than the PW1), but the new PW2 invoked a better feeling.

I actually never expected to use the new PW2 that much, because the $69 baby Kindle is that good and I believe the PWs front-light technology has some inherent limitations (less "natural" e-ink feeling). The $69 baby Kindle, especially the late 2012 units I've seen, have such superior text blackness that the PW2 can't come anywhere close. I also think the case light in the baby Kindle is easier on the eyes in the dark than the PW2 lighting is. But, given my low expectations, I was positively surprised with the replacement PW2. When the screen is finally sort of good enough, it is easier to look past it and at the actually nice features the PW2 has and give it a serious go without cringing.

I don't know, maybe I'll actually get to read some on the darned thing...
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Old 11-07-2013, 11:35 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearindex View Post
I thought I owed you guys one more report, so here goes...

I don't know, maybe I'll actually get to read some on the darned thing...
Congrats! Wow though having to go through that many CSR, that is just bad. How do you think you finally got them to get it?

I am definitely not going to try the new one after hearing this inconsistent units. I will continue using my K4B with the lighted case. I have been using it every night, sometimes I grab the PW1 and use, but the text is definitely milky.

With my K4B case I had to file down with sandpaper one side because the page turn buttons wouldn't work right. Now they are, but sometimes I run into some issues hitting it just right. I may consider the 8.9" Kindle Fire HDX when the price drops and reviews come in. I saw in the store (7") and the text darkness was great.

After my being on the chat with Amazon the last week for a big amount of time (Trade-in problems) I find it can be draining on my time and patience. Don't know how you stuck to it. You didn't say phone call or chat, which was it?

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Old 11-07-2013, 11:58 PM   #52
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I agree with all the praise for the Kindle 4! B(Black). As others have pointed out, it has a great "natural" e-ink feeling to it. I had the 1st gen PW and I just didn't get the same "book like" feeling that I got from the 4B - just felt too much like a tablet to me. I had a bit of an accident with my first 4B bought back last October and was sent a replacement in September. I was very happy with the screen on my first 4B but the screen on the second was even slightly better - a whiter pearl screen and slightly darker text. Love the device, I'm sticking with it and expect to buy another one or two when the basic reader is discontinued (although I still have my fingers crossed for the same version with a 212 PPI).
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:13 AM   #53
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Congrats! Wow though having to go through that many CSR, that is just bad. How do you think you finally got them to get it?
I have experienced the Amazon customer service before and I'd say the one day experience was worse than normal. Usually they are better, like they were on the second day I tried. I'm guessing they just didn't have trained Kindle specialists on hand, even though they kept trying to forward to me one and I used the Kindle Support links. (I used chat.) I don't hold it too much against Amazon, the second day went well and none of the people gave me any grief over my issue, they just didn't have the authority to do anything about it until I got to the right kind of support person.

The replacement itself shipped in two days over the Atlantic, so that's good.

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I am definitely not going to try the new one after hearing this inconsistent units. I will continue using my K4B with the lighted case. I have been using it every night, sometimes I grab the PW1 and use, but the text is definitely milky.
Yes, obviously the pure e-ink Kindles are much less inconsistent than the lighted e-ink Kindles are. With the Kindle 4B there is some chance of e-ink variance in the screen (some batches seem to be a little different in hue etc.), but with the Paperwhites there are many more potential issues due to a far more complex screen assembly with multiple layers (pin-holes, dust between layers, alignment issues, LED variances etc.). If you want the blackest black and the least worrisome Kindle today, the $69 Kindle 4B is the safest bet and remains my favorite Kindle.

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With my K4B case I had to file down with sandpaper one side because the page turn buttons wouldn't work right. Now they are, but sometimes I run into some issues hitting it just right. I may consider the 8.9" Kindle Fire HDX when the price drops and reviews come in. I saw in the store (7") and the text darkness was great.
This problem had been reported already with the Kindle 4 silver launch in 2011 and I guess it has persisted for some. I have never encountered it myself, but it is one of those things (alongside the light shining into eyes and not-so-nice leather) that I have added to my list of cons in the Kindle 4 case compared to the other official Amazon cases (official Kindle 2-3 cases and Kindle PW cases are much better in my opinion).

As said, the Kindle 4 (lighted) official case isn't perfect... but just like democracy, so far it is the best we've got.
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:15 AM   #54
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I agree with all the praise for the Kindle 4! B(Black). As others have pointed out, it has a great "natural" e-ink feeling to it. I had the 1st gen PW and I just didn't get the same "book like" feeling that I got from the 4B - just felt too much like a tablet to me. I had a bit of an accident with my first 4B bought back last October and was sent a replacement in September. I was very happy with the screen on my first 4B but the screen on the second was even slightly better - a whiter pearl screen and slightly darker text. Love the device, I'm sticking with it and expect to buy another one or two when the basic reader is discontinued (although I still have my fingers crossed for the same version with a 212 PPI).
Yes, I agree with this completely - and would love a 212 PPI version of the basic Kindle, or pretty much any kind of upgrade to the non-lighted Kindle. I am contemplating buying a spare $69 Kindle just in case, because I too worry about its future...
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:32 AM   #55
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I thought I owed you guys one more report, so here goes...

...

Turns out, I got a good one. The new screen isn't quite as bright as the first PW2, it is somewhere in-between my PW1 and the first PW2 in brightness, but that's actually a good thing - the light is more even. There is none of the bottom right corner light-leakage and overall the "stage lighting" on the bottom edge of the new unit is the least pronounced of the three. I mean, like on all PW2s I believe, the stage lighting still shows there when you look very closely, but compared to the glare in PW1 it has now practically disappeared. The screen is yellowish like the first PW2, but it is a nice shade. PW1 with the light on looks very blue compared to the two PW2's.

...

I don't know, maybe I'll actually get to read some on the darned thing...
So, something I never properly (outside of testing runs) did with the first PW2 because I was too annoyed by the flaws on its screen, I actually settled in to read - in darkness - with the new PW2. My best comparison being the PW1 last year, which I also used to do some actual reading on, before settling onto the much nicer basic $69 Kindle for my daily Kindle for the past year.

Anyway, the first thing any pure e-ink lover probably faces with reading a lighted e-ink screen in the dark is trying to come into grips with the tablet or LCD-like feeling. I didn't get into e-ink because it looked like a screen, but because it looked nothing like a screen. The paperlikeness is the magic that attracts me to e-ink and has allowed me to embrace digital books in a way no tablet of mine has ever been able. Those reading in the dark probably know what I mean.

Put the Paperwhite 2 light to the max and no matter any clever frontlight trickery involved, it looks just like an LCD and nothing like electronic paper. I must sing a little praise at this point, though, the consistency of the lighting has gotten to such a level that it didn't give me any worries even when reading in the dark. The light is stronger around the edges than the middle, but it doesn't seem splotchy or patchy anymore. To say it is even or perfect would be a lie, but I do feel it is relatively consistent and personally I got into grips with it very quickly. This is high praise coming from someone who did NOT get into grips with my PW1's screen experience, even though it isn't anywhere as bad as some I've seen online.

So, it became a question of adjusting the PW2 light and could I read comfortably at a level that didn't feel like reading on an LCD in the dark. In the end I read a good hour+ on level 7 I think. It was pleasant enough to the point I forgot about the reader and I do like the touch interface, I already liked it on the PW1 even though I expected to hate the lack of page changing buttons. The touch became especially nice when I had to look up some words in the dictionary, the explanation opening in a nice big window on the screen much appreciated too. I put the new PW2 in my old PW1 official case, and the magnetic cover on/off feature is great too. Also, I appreciated the clearly less weight in my PW2 Wi-Fi compared to PW1 3G.

It is far too early days to say whether or not the PW2 can compete with my trusty baby Kindle, because even at level 7, when reading in the dark some of the e-ink feeling is still lost. Good news is, the screen quality itself was fine and didn't bother me anymore, what bothers me if anything if the principal limitation of this technology concept - it looks like a screen, not like paper. Reading in lighted rooms PW2 works much better because you can actually use the light to control the whiteness of the screen while still looking like electronic paper, the darkness reading scenario continues to be the one area where frontlighted e-ink has a hard time competing with regular e-ink in an integrated lighted case.
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Old 11-09-2013, 12:06 PM   #56
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Third report with the replacement PW2:

This time I got to reading during the dark evening, but with some in-door lighting. I think this was the best Paperwhite reading experience so far for me. I still think PW2 works best when there is some other light/lighting available, the contrast between dark surroundings and a lit screen isn't so big then. Also, one can use the light to whiten the page and increase reading lighting just so, without making it look like an LCD screen...

I was reading at light level 15, which does make the screen glow a little, but the overall experience was pleasant. There were a moment or two when I noticed unevenness in the lighting in the middle of the screen, but it was more academic than a worry - as said, the evenness has improved to a reasonable level. I got lost in the book and that's a good thing. Changing pages and using the dictionary with touch is very nice, that part I liked especially considering the page changing keys in the $69 Kindle are a bit small.

The swipes and the touch areas are a bit confusing when reading on left and right hands alternatively, but I mostly got used to it - sometimes I was changing pages into the wrong direction. Using the dictionary in PW2 requires long pressed of the word, because there are other functions (highlighting etc.) there as well. In my use it would be nice if only a short press would be needed for the dictionary, but still using the dictionary is much easier on the PW2 than on the $69 Kindle.

I was reading with Caecilia at size four and found the blacks perfectly serviceable. I didn't feel like needing to hack in darker fonts or the like. Looking side by side with the $69 Kindle, the blacks on the PW2 are clearly worse, but they were good enough to read on today. The slightly decreased weight of the PW2 compared to PW1 (especially since mine are PW2 Wi-Fi vs. PW1 3G) is also welcome, although with the case it is still a little heavier than the lighted $69 Kindle. The official PW2 cover works very nicely too and the quality is higher than that of the $69 Kindle case - love the magnetic on/off latch.

I'm especially impressed with the PW2 main menu, with the books and sharp graphics, now that my screen isn't slanted and the lighting is even enough to get to appreciate the graphics. A splotchy, crooked screen really messes with the beauty of this - and with my replacement PW2 I can finally use that menu in a way that let's me enjoy it.

I still think there is the possibility I will never get to grips with reading on the PW2 in "absolute" darkness. It is possible it isn't very goot at that, for my use, because keeping the light low enough makes it harder to read. But so far I am genuinely warming up to the PW2 otherwise - as long as one can find a unit they are comfortable with, unfortunately that is still quite the hit and miss...
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Old 11-10-2013, 06:38 AM   #57
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I still think there is the possibility I will never get to grips with reading on the PW2 in "absolute" darkness. It is possible it isn't very goot at that, for my use, because keeping the light low enough makes it harder to read.
You're not going to be able to read in "absolute darkness" without some source of light, and if you have a light source, you're no longer in absolute darkness, so it seems like rather a non-problem.
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:23 AM   #58
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You're not going to be able to read in "absolute darkness" without some source of light, and if you have a light source, you're no longer in absolute darkness, so it seems like rather a non-problem.
Sorry if I was unclear, I hoped it was clear by now my comparison is an integrated cover light on the regular e-ink Kindles. I mean I am not using any light, other than the one on the Kindle. I want to be able to read in the dark with a self-lighted Kindle unit that looks like a book when closed and opens up to a lighted reading device when opened.

So, in the case of Kindle 4B vs. Paperwhite 2 the comparison is that of the light covered Kindle 4B vs. Paperwhite 2 with its integrated front-light. The surroundings are dark or at least as dark as they can be at night, of course nothing is absolutely dark, hence the double-quotes.

I do acknowledge using a clip-on light with Paperwhite would be an option, but I have never researched that further than the idea level (see the first post of this thread), due to lack of good cover-integrated light options for PW, the blacker text on the Kindle 4B and because PW has extra layers on top of the screen which mean it doesn't look quite as papery with external lighting anyway. If someone would make a good lighted cover for PW, I might consider that for reading in darkness - and using the frontlight when reading in lighted situations that need extra light.

More PW2 experiences: I read in complete darkness yesterday, light at 7 again, and it worked OK. Light evenness wasn't any kind of issue at that level, a bigger one was that the text and the page were feeling quite dark by that stage - but going much up from the light level would have meant getting that LCD feeling (and disturbing future sleep) and that's no good either. Anyway, at the very least I'm liking the PW experience finally, with my replacement PW2. It just remains to be seen if the PW experience itself is the best (or not) for my particular use cases. Anyway, I'm keeping this unit - it is a keeper.

Last edited by fearindex; 11-10-2013 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:30 AM   #59
HarryT
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Originally Posted by fearindex View Post
Sorry if I was unclear, I hoped it was clear by now my comparison is an integrated cover light on the regular e-ink Kindles. I mean I am not using any light, other than the one on the Kindle. I want to be able to read in the dark with a self-lighted Kindle unit that looks like a book when closed and opens up to a lighted reading device when opened.

So, in the case of Kindle 4B vs. Paperwhite 2 the comparison is that of the light covered Kindle 4B vs. Paperwhite 2 with its integrated front-light. The surroundings are dark or at least as dark as they can be at night, of course nothing is absolutely dark, hence the double-quotes.
Do you not think that the integrated light of the PW is much better than any clip-on light or lighted cover when it comes to the evenness of the illumination? I used Amazon's lighted covers for both the K3 and Touch, and both provided very uneven lighting - the K3 especially, where the light all came from one corner, and the light fell off in intensity both horizontally and vertically). Compared with any clip-on light, or external light source, the PW's frontlit screen is just fantastic, to my mind.
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:51 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Do you not think that the integrated light of the PW is much better than any clip-on light or lighted cover when it comes to the evenness of the illumination? I used Amazon's lighted covers for both the K3 and Touch, and both provided very uneven lighting - the K3 especially, where the light all came from one corner, and the light fell off in intensity both horizontally and vertically). Compared with any clip-on light, or external light source, the PW's frontlit screen is just fantastic, to my mind.
That is a fair point, and yes I have considered it a lot from many angles - literally.

Here are a couple of stories of mine where I've researched the issue from the Kindle 4B lighted cover perspective:

Differences between Kindle 4/5 official lighted cover versions
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,164293.0.html

Fixing Kindle 4/5/Touch lighted cover - no more light shining in your eyes!
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,131020.0.html

Anyway, I agree that the PW2 light is more even than the Kindle 4B lighted cover when considered literally. The 4B light hotspots quite a bit and definitely isn't completely even to the sides. If someone find that unevenness bothersome, I have no quarrel with that - the light certainly isn't fully even and doesn't probably even try to be. No single LED point could light such a page evenly.

But there are some distinct differences why that is different. The biggest one is the way the unevenness of 4B light seems more natural - after all, it is like the unevenness of any light shining on the surface of a book. It is not an unevenness inherent to the surface itself. At least to my perception, a light source falling down on a surface and then getting darker the further you go from it feels quite natural - the brain adjusts to it quickly.

Contrast this to PW2, in a dark reading scenario, only the screen itself is lit - the contrast to the surroundings and the frame of the device is jarring. What you are seeing, then, is only a lighted screen - and if a lighted screen looks uneven, it is different than unevenness from an external lighting would be. You are seeing unevenness in the surface of the device itself, not an unevenness caused by light spreading over it.

And not only that, the way PW1/PW2 is lighted, with the help of four LEDs and a lightguide means that the light won't fall down on the screen in any kind of natural-feeling pattern such as e.g. a single overhead light would. It is a constructed light path and unevenness there does look and feel quite different from how at least I perceive external lighting. PW1 especially was prone to generating a almost randomly splotchy look, something that the 4B lighted cover could never do.
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