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Old 09-23-2013, 04:02 AM   #1
Julius Caesar
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Is there anyway to force Kindle to show text in one page?

Pretty often, a book has a diagram and a description under it. I want the description and the diagram to be in one page. It's too disorienting to flip back and forth with an eBook. Is there anyway to force Kindle PW to do this?

The book has been unpacked so I can modify the source with a text editor.

EDIT: the <mbp:pagebreak/> tag would force the picture and the description to a new page. It helps but not good enough.

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Old 09-23-2013, 06:30 AM   #2
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Old 09-23-2013, 06:50 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesar View Post

Pretty often, a book has a diagram and a description under it. I want the description and the diagram to be in one page. ... Is there anyway to force Kindle PW to do this?
Yes, it is! Now I don't have enough time to explain the things you have to do but later I will post the solution for Kindle PW (and any other Kindle that supports the .kf8 format)
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Old 09-23-2013, 09:08 PM   #4
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Sorry for the delay (I was very busy today)

In your css stylesheet, write the following:

Code:
html {
    height: 100%; /* very important */
    margin: 0;
}

body {
    height: 100%;  /* very important */
    margin: 0;
}

#content {
    display: table;
    height: 100%;
    width: 100%;
    text-indent: 0;
    text-align: center;
}

.img_row {
    display: table-row;
    height: 85%;
}

.caption_row {
    display: table-row;
    height: 15%;
}

.img_cell {
    display: table-cell;
    vertical-align: middle;
    background: url("../Images/Obama.jpg") no-repeat 50% 50%; /* as you can see, the image is the background of the "cell" */
    background-size: contain; /* this is important */ 
}

.caption_cell {
    display: table-cell;
    vertical-align: middle;
    text-indent: 0;
    text-align: center;
    font-size: 0.9em;
    font-weight: bold;
}

p {
    text-align: justify;
    text-indent: 1em;
    font-size: 1em;
    margin-bottom: 1em;
}
And in your .html file (where is going to go the image), write:

Code:
<body>
  <div id="content">
    <div class="img_row">
      <p class="img_cell"></p>
    </div>

    <div class="caption_row">
      <p class="caption_cell"><big>Barak Obama</big><br />
      President of the United States of America</p>
    </div>
  </div>
</body>
With this technique, image and caption will remain in the same page, ALWAYS, no matter the font-size (device's font size) and the orientation of the page (the image and caption will be together in both, portrait and landscape mode). Of course, this only works for Kindle devices that supports the .kf8 format (you are ok since your device is a Kindle PW )

Below you can see screenshots of my K4NT (in portrait and landscape mode) and the respective ePub.

Regards
Rubén
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Last edited by RbnJrg; 09-23-2013 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 09-24-2013, 12:26 AM   #5
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Thanks. I will give it a try
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Old 09-24-2013, 06:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Caesar View Post
Thanks. I will give it a try
Julius:

Pay attention to his warnings about the older Kindle devices, however; on k1's, it won't work at all, as the original Kindles cannot display tables whatsoever, which means your stuff will run together, at best; if you have large-ish diagrams/tables on a K2, and the table breaks, you'll have pretty good-sized issues, no pun intended. You need to find another solution for fallback K7 coding.

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Old 09-25-2013, 01:19 AM   #7
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[...] You need to find another solution for fallback K7 coding.
What K7 fallback code would people in your company use in this situation?
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:54 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post
What K7 fallback code would people in your company use in this situation?
The operating assumption here is that my company would find itself in this situation. We wouldn't. Not because we're rocket surgeons, to coin a phrase, but because we are very annoyingly diligent about explaining device/software limitations to clients. I would never (with all due respect to RbnJrg) invest all that time in putting images and captions in tables, for the very reasons I mentioned--on millions of devices, in the biggest marketplace for books in the world, that coding won't work or can create more problems. You'd have to come up with a contrived K7 "fallback" calling the image twice...nah, even that wouldn't work.

We tell our clients that if the captioning issue is that important to them, we can make the images with the captions attached, as images of text, or they can become accustomed to the idea that captions may very well break across a page/screen if someone enlarges their text. {shrug}. I spent a few years killing myself and my crews over this type of thing (like making outline-formatted TOC's work perfectly, when they are tabular in nature), and realized eventually that I was pushing a chain up a hill. It's a ridiculous thing to do. There are standards of care, and high-quality production, and then there's silliness caused simply because the very nature of ebooks is misunderstood (the ubiquitous square peg, round hole bit).

If a client is that obsessed with "images and captions must be" on the same page, then I tell them to consider fixed-format, which a) will give them exactly what they want; b) will require that we make a new book for each retailer, not format, c) cost a small fortune, due to all the minute, painstaking coding required for that, and d) severely limit the number of devices upon which the resulting tome can be sold. I have, curiously enough, found that when the price difference for a book goes up about $1,000, and the marketing and sales options decrease dramatically, most people decide that captions sticking absolutely next to their images just aren't as crucial as they thought they were.

Not to be derogatory about clients--not at all--but when it's your time and effort and brain-damage being expended, to make captions stick with images, a client will indeed stress over it, and send a book back to be revised umpteen times. If you charge for the actual costs of making a book that way (using either Ruben's table method, or the fixed-format), I generally find that things fall into perspective. Just my $.02.

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Old 09-25-2013, 06:46 AM   #9
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I too want to reiterate Hitch's warnings. If this is for personal usage, feel free to use all the code you want. But please tell me this is not for a book for sale.

This discussion of "captions with images" comes up QUITE often, here are a few topics which may also have some answers:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=166836
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=215466
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=193514
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=172377
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=192692
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90457

While looking through a few of these old threads, I stumbled upon this link:

http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/20...r-yes-you.html

Would this code work on Kindles? (and does it work in ADE or iBooks still?)

(I see Hitch in a lot of these old topics saying the same exact stuff).

To RbnJrg:

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Happen to have a collection of ebooks sitting around showing off all your coding madness?

To Hitch:

I swear I saw you post this exact "K7 fallback code" comment about 10 times in the past few days (unless I am becoming delusional due to it being past my bed time).

I was tempted to find them all and copy/paste "What K7 fallback code would people in your company use in this situation?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
We tell our clients that if the captioning issue is that important to them, we can make the images with the captions attached, as images of text, or they can become accustomed to the idea that captions may very well break across a page/screen if someone enlarges their text. {shrug}.
Not scaling or following user preferences? I refuse!!!

As to attaching text at the bottom of an image? (JPG -> JPG... the lossy horror)

Do you guys try to implement at least SOME CSS code like a "page-break: avoid"? (not talking Kindle specific here)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
[...] There are standards of care, and high-quality production, and then there's silliness caused simply because the very nature of ebooks is misunderstood (the ubiquitous square peg, round hole bit).
Indeed. Same how I feel.

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 09-25-2013 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:17 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post

[Some good points deleted]

Do you guys try to implement at least SOME CSS code like a "page-break: avoid"? (not talking Kindle specific here)

Indeed. Same how I feel.
Certainly the CSS page-break avoid is the best solution when it is an available choice and when the target device supports this. Enclose the image and the caption in a div statement and set it to avoid. This is an excellent choice when the page image is not forced to be at the top of the next page and particularly where multiple screen sizes are used. Forcing the image to the top of the next page with page-break always is another choice.

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Old 09-25-2013, 01:13 PM   #11
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To RbnJrg:

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Happen to have a collection of ebooks sitting around showing off all your coding madness?


Trial and error, trial and error Tex. But I'm not alone in all this; Doitsu, Dylan Tomorrow and some others belong to the same "club"

By the way, my "madness" could help you with your issue with .svg images The bad one with my "crazy things" is that so far, only work for Kindle (the new Kindles, those who support the .kf8 format). Maybe in a future things can change and all devices will be able to support them.

Regards
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:38 PM   #12
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Certainly the CSS page-break avoid is the best solution when it is an available choice and when the target device supports this. Enclose the image and the caption in a div statement and set it to avoid. This is an excellent choice when the page image is not forced to be at the top of the next page and particularly where multiple screen sizes are used. Forcing the image to the top of the next page with page-break always is another choice.

Dale
Yes, and we put this (page-break:avoid) in every single book that could use it, to "future-set" them, for a day and age when hopefully, that will work. However, most devices still don't obey that. The 1st-Gen iPad still has a bug in iBooks (which Apple has flatly stated that they will not bother fixing) that makes this coding almost worthless.

@Tex2002ans:

No, inline-block doesn't work for Kindles, and yes, you've seen me post about fallback coding for K7's, because the vast majority of "fixes" being posted these days here on MR completely ignore all the K7 devices in the world, and won't work. Because Ruben uses a K8 device, that's what he designs for, and, I assume, what he tests on, but he (and other posters) doesn't/don't bother to create fallback styling.

As a commercial bookmaker, I don't have the luxury of ignoring millions of K7 devices, so I have to think about these things, and that's why you see me posting it. With no disrespect to Ruben, who has a lot of very nice coding, solving most of the Kindle "problems" isn't very problematic when you only need to think about K8.

I concur that lossy horror ensues when captions are attached to images. However, some clients just can't get past the idea of it captions separating from images. {shrug}. When given their various choices, if it's that important to them, that's what they'll choose. And again, if they want to pay us to sit there and do this type of menial labor, that's their choice, but we always give them an example to see what happens when you try to zoom the image, etc., and it's something we recommend against.

Until people become accustomed to the idea of ebooks, this will continue to happen--the square-peg, round hole-ness of it all. I recently decided to stop taking poetry, because we simply can't charge enough to compensate for what we go through, in explanations about line-wrapping, indentations, the fact that you can't "space over 7 spaces, exactly," for whatever, and, to be blunt, the amazing amount of verbal/written abuse we take whenever a poet thinks that somehow, you've screwed with his "creative vision." It's just not worth it. We have a book that's been in production since December, and the worst part is, it's still in PRINT, and this client screams at us every single time he gets the book back (even though, last time, he'd already approved the book--said it was perfect; wanted three small word-for-word text changes, and then screamed when he got it back that we'd "changed" it, which we hadn't. He'd approved a book that was exactly the same, excepting those three words.) I literally live in dread of what's going to happen when we send him the ePUB and MOBI. (And this whole thing? For a chapbook of poetry? About $300, total. Since DECEMBER.) So....no more poetry for us, either. Too much brain-damage, too little return, and for the life of me, I don't understand the mindset that says it's okay to berate people, (for no reason, mind you) which seems to be the hallmark of dealing with poetry.

</ poetry rant>

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Old 09-25-2013, 04:01 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
Certainly the CSS page-break avoid is the best solution when it is an available choice and when the target device supports this. Enclose the image and the caption in a div statement and set it to avoid. This is an excellent choice when the page image is not forced to be at the top of the next page and particularly where multiple screen sizes are used. Forcing the image to the top of the next page with page-break always is another choice.
I will begin tossing this into the EPUBs that need them (going to finish tweaking one today). I have known about the solution for a while already (just absorbing it from those tens/hundreds/thousands/millions of times this question has been asked), but it never really occurred to me to ACTUALLY use it in my code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RbnJrg View Post
By the way, my "madness" could help you with your issue with .svg images The bad one with my "crazy things" is that so far, only work for Kindle (the new Kindles, those who support the .kf8 format). Maybe in a future things can change and all devices will be able to support them.
(Forgive the sidetracking) Me and you must combine forces, we will figure out this SVG in EPUB thing!

There WILL have to be a "cutoff point" eventually, where you just say bye bye to an older device. You say the cutoff point is now.... I say somewhere in the middle. Hitch, perhaps about 10 years after everyone's Kindle has drawn its last breath!

Quote:
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[...] this client screams at us every single time he gets the book back (even though, last time, he'd already approved the book--said it was perfect; wanted three small word-for-word text changes, and then screamed when he got it back that we'd "changed" it, which we hadn't. He'd approved a book that was exactly the same, excepting those three words.)

[...]

I literally live in dread of what's going to happen when we send him the ePUB and MOBI. (And this whole thing? For a chapbook of poetry? About $300, total. Since DECEMBER.) So....no more poetry for us, either.
I love the phantom "changes"!

Perhaps poetry conversion can be FREE, and then you charge per complaint.

"Please fill out this form with the required $5 Poetry Complaint Fee:"

You would be raking in the dough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post
Too much brain-damage, too little return, and for the life of me, I don't understand the mindset that says it's okay to berate people, (for no reason, mind you) which seems to be the hallmark of dealing with poetry.
Especially when you are doing it at such a high quality for so cheap.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch View Post

As a commercial bookmaker, I don't have the luxury of ignoring millions of K7 devices, so I have to think about these things, and that's why you see me posting it. With no disrespect to Ruben, who has a lot of very nice coding, solving most of the Kindle "problems" isn't very problematic when you only need to think about K8.

Hitch
No disrespect at all Hitch and I understand your position. And I agree with you that things will be easier if only we think about K8. Personally, I think that the .kf8 format gives a better reading experience and to code for K7 is like pretending that software developers also make their programs available for Windows 3.1 But I admire your professionalism and you remember the K7 users.

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Old 09-25-2013, 05:55 PM   #15
RbnJrg
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Posts: 451
Karma: 318996
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Rosario - Santa Fe - Argentina
Device: Kindle 4 NT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post

(Forgive the sidetracking)
Of course Tex!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post

Me and you must combine forces, we will figure out this SVG in EPUB thing!
Yes, we must And the support for SVG images in ADE is not so bad; practically you can do with a SVG image the same (and more) as others kind of images. What is your current issue with SVG?
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