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Old 09-17-2013, 05:41 PM   #31
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...People who want the latest and greatest and have to *rely* on it and need support and guaranteed bug fixes ASAP, they buy Red Hat itself.
...
If you want latest and greatest you take Ubuntu/Fedora. Only *relay* on applys - and that not quite at the moment. And Sigil is (still!) a proof that open source project could be awesome.

@Hitch
The Linux lives as open source project because a lot of competing vendors see advantage to use and improve it. Is similar model in your field impossible?
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Old 09-17-2013, 06:19 PM   #32
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If you want latest and greatest you take Ubuntu/Fedora.
I meant the leatest and greatest with regard to Red Hat of course, not open source or Linux in general.
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Old 09-17-2013, 06:54 PM   #33
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I would be absolutely lost without Sigil. I've purchased books that were a mess ranging from various size text popping up within chapters, even within same paragraphs, to overuse of tables that chopped off the majority of the text on my readers, where it was too annoying and even impossible to read without fixing it.

I'm perfectly happy with Sigil it in its current state even if it never makes another update. Other than if somewhere along the line epub3 replaces epub2, just so it can work on whatever new standard would take over.

I'm sure all of us appreciate this program more than we ever say and thank you and all the past contributors for keeping it available for us. Here's hoping it somehow still has a long and healthy life.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:27 PM   #34
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I agree with Ripplinger. Sigil became a great program in the last two years.

It would be worth it to maintain its current working status by bugfixes where necessary, even if it never received another new feature.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:29 PM   #35
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I agree with Ripplinger. Sigil became a great program in the last two years.

It would be worth it to maintain its current working status by bugfixes where necessary, even if it never received another new feature.
I have to agree with that too. There have been some improvements since I first found my way to Sigil (a lot in ease of use I think) and if you keep on adding on new stuff eventually the main program could get buried. In any event even if new features aren't added (either in the short or long term) it does work great as is. Are there still some bugs? I don't know, though I do agree it is possible, and as OS's change some issues may develop in the future. Still it does what it is designed to do and does it well. What more could anyone ask?
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:33 PM   #36
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Well, shucks! I shouldn't have waited this long to jump into this thread, and now I struggle to find something cogent to say to all the commentary that has gone before.

First, I want to thank John, Dave, and the other contributors (Drake? - I surely don't want to leave anyone out, but since the source tree has been removed from google code, I'm working from (a very faulty) memory) for the absolutely awesome work they have done to bring sigil to this point. I've been using it since about version 0.2, when it was still mostly a gleam in Valloric's eye, until now. When he handed it off to user-none, I had the same misgivings as Hitch. Namely, that its days were numbered. But, I thought, by now the basic functionality I needed was in place; and not too buggy, so dayenu! It is enough! But that was not to be.

I have been following the code base all along, and I wonder how many regulars in this thread realize how massive the changes "under the hood" have been since user-none stepped up to the plate. People, according to the fascinating statistics cited above, there are over a million lines of code in the current project. And, it's C++ at that. If you are not a C++ coder -- and I'm not, though not for want of effort -- let me tell you that John et al. have done a mighty work to bring Sigil to where it is today.

Who am I, and where am I coming from? As some of you know, I work for a small-press publisher that has been active in both e-books and print for a decade or more. My job is to prepare the e-books for distribution. (BTW, for better or worse, we are adamantly non-DRM, so that isn't a consideration.) In my workflow, I take master files in Adobe InDesign format, or Word .doc files (if there is no print contract, or if we are doing an ARC), export them as an epub, and use Sigil to make final modifications, which are not insignificant. Sigil is so important to our workflow, that if it ceased to exist, I would create a virtual Linux machine at the last level that was compatible with Sigil, and install the Last Sigil, and keep it as an application that would enable me to edit and modify our epubs, from which we make every other commercial format.

And yes, my company are monitary contributors to the Sigil project. And if stepping that up would help, I'm sure we would. Not that I have any control over those decisions, but my input is valued, I think.

Sure, I could do it by hand, but Sigil does all the book-keeping when an epub is modified. To do it by hand, I'd never remember all the changes in content.opf, for example, not to mention the toc.ncx, and whatever else.

So yeah, Sigil in its present form will live forever on our network. But I hope it will manage to survive in development somehow.

And with heartfelt thanks to John et al. I remain,
Albert

Last edited by st_albert; 09-17-2013 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:29 AM   #37
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If you want latest and greatest you take Ubuntu/Fedora. Only *relay* on applys - and that not quite at the moment. And Sigil is (still!) a proof that open source project could be awesome.

@Hitch
The Linux lives as open source project because a lot of competing vendors see advantage to use and improve it. Is similar model in your field impossible?
Hi, Varlog:

I suspect not. Most of my "competitors" are using insta-programs like Jutoh, or AWP, or are uploading Word files that have been cleaned at NookPress and KDP. I just don't see a large enough commercial market for Sigil if, say, 20-30 largish commercial supporters don't step up and commit to $X annually to keep it going. And I don't think that means only $100 or even $500 each. I don't think most people have any idea what it takes to support coding. (I'm talking about someone nearly half-time, to keep up with the requests for everything that gets whacked around in here, as an OS project--not talking what I'd need for a forked version, supported by me for my company only).

John and the other guys have done yeoman's jobs...but again, nobody is going to do that for nothing forever. That's a reality of life.

Just my $.02. Yes, Sigil as-is will live on our servers for a long, long time...but as Albert knows, the market changes constantly. As little as a year ago, we didn't need some of what we need now. Some things--as small as DC: categories, can cause an ePUB to die at Lulu, for example (e.g., the Creator meta, instead of author). These things are easy to fix with Sigil, harder with other programs. I don't particularly want to use something else or to do most of this crap by hand, myself, and I promise my staff doesn't.

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Old 09-18-2013, 05:45 AM   #38
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Sigil is so important to our workflow, that if it ceased to exist, I would create a virtual Linux machine at the last level that was compatible with Sigil, and install the Last Sigil, and keep it as an application that would enable me to edit and modify our epubs.
I hadn't even thought of the fact that there is a Linux version too.

Same goes for LilyPond and Frescobaldi. Maybe I should start looking into a Linux VM in case things go wrong. (As in: Windows changes in such a way that one of these programs won't run, and they can't be updated anymore.)

A Linux VM may be more future-proof than the already ancient Windows XP.

Quote:
Sure, I could do it by hand, but Sigil does all the book-keeping when an epub is modified. To do it by hand, I'd never remember all the changes in content.opf, for example, not to mention the toc.ncx, and whatever else.
This is the very reason for Sigil's existence. One doesn't need it to edit CSS, text, or HTML; any editor can do that, even notepad if you have to. The thing Sigil does is much more important: keeping the EPUB in order while you add or delete files or TOC entries without you having to know each and every little bit of the EPUB standard.

Sigil keeps the details of how EPUBs are constructed out of the way, letting you do what you actually need to do.

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And with heartfelt thanks to John et al.
Albert
Couldn't have said it better.

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And I don't think that means only $100 or even $500 each. I don't think most people have any idea what it takes to support coding.
You can say that again, to many managers in particular.

"I want a button that does <insert huge complex task> here, as we promised that to our clients. It has to be done in a month."
- "Dude... that's a MASSIVE task. That will take two people half a year to develop!"
"But it's only a button! You drag it on the form and write some code for it."
- *sigh*

The times I've had conversations like that...

Last edited by Katsunami; 09-18-2013 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 09-18-2013, 06:35 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Katsunami View Post
"I want a button that does <insert huge complex task> here, as we promised that to our clients. It has to be done a month."
- "Dude... that's a MASSIVE task. That will take two people half a year to develop!"
"But it's only a button! You drag it on the form and write some code for it."
- *sigh*

The times I've had conversations like that...
I hear your pain *sigh* (same conversations...)
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:27 AM   #40
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Hi, Varlog:

I suspect not. Most of my "competitors" are using insta-programs like Jutoh, or AWP, or are uploading Word files that have been cleaned at NookPress and KDP. I just don't see a large enough commercial market for Sigil if, say, 20-30 largish commercial supporters don't step up and commit to $X annually to keep it going. And I don't think that means only $100 or even $500 each. I don't think most people have any idea what it takes to support coding. (I'm talking about someone nearly half-time, to keep up with the requests for everything that gets whacked around in here, as an OS project--not talking what I'd need for a forked version, supported by me for my company only).

John and the other guys have done yeoman's jobs...but again, nobody is going to do that for nothing forever. That's a reality of life.

Just my $.02. Yes, Sigil as-is will live on our servers for a long, long time...but as Albert knows, the market changes constantly. As little as a year ago, we didn't need some of what we need now. Some things--as small as DC: categories, can cause an ePUB to die at Lulu, for example (e.g., the Creator meta, instead of author). These things are easy to fix with Sigil, harder with other programs. I don't particularly want to use something else or to do most of this crap by hand, myself, and I promise my staff doesn't.

Hitch
Yup.

Juho does some decent job with css / html, but as someone with knowledge in css / html, it pains me to see badly codded ePubs. And sigil is a wonderful tools for that.
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:41 AM   #41
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I've been fairly impressed with the simplicity/efficiency of the markup/css behind commercial epubs I'm starting see that appear to have been created with AWP. That's not to say they haven't been cleaned up a bit after AWP, but still... pleasantly surprised.

But yeah, the level of detail/granularity that Sigil provides for the tweaking of an existing ePub is where it really shines.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:49 AM   #42
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I've been fairly impressed with the simplicity/efficiency of the markup/css behind commercial epubs I'm starting see that appear to have been created with AWP. That's not to say they haven't been cleaned up a bit after AWP, but still... pleasantly surprised.

But yeah, the level of detail/granularity that Sigil provides for the tweaking of an existing ePub is where it really shines.
That's what I use it for. I will download an epub from PG and cut out the stuff that books here don't need and make sure there is a functional TOC. Then I save it, load it into Calibre and convert the file to Kindle format.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:18 PM   #43
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I hear your pain *sigh* (same conversations...)
We have similar discussions, even down at the lowly ebook level. "Why can't you just put three columns for my glossary," or my personal favorite "why can't you do it right now? It's only ONE little edit!"

That's the main problem, with user_none supporting Sigil. It's just too much for one guy, with a full-time job, who isn't being paid. {shrug}. We're all going to have to roll our own, I suspect.

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Old 09-18-2013, 04:25 PM   #44
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We have similar discussions, even down at the lowly ebook level. "Why can't you just put three columns for my glossary,"
Columns in CSS....

I think I'm going to hang myself. If there's one thing that's hard to do in CSS, it's columns. Yeah, it can be done with tricks, but you often need(ed) different tricks for different browsers.

Quote:
That's the main problem, with user_none supporting Sigil. It's just too much for one guy.
Being a coder, I wouldn't expect it to be otherwise, to be honest. "Could you please change <insert one little detail here>" can sometimes take a lot of work, no matter how modular and perfectly the application is designed.
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Old 09-18-2013, 04:49 PM   #45
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We have similar discussions, even down at the lowly ebook level. "Why can't you just put three columns for my glossary," or my personal favorite "why can't you do it right now? It's only ONE little edit!"

That's the main problem, with user_none supporting Sigil. It's just too much for one guy, with a full-time job, who isn't being paid. {shrug}. We're all going to have to roll our own, I suspect.

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