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Old 09-16-2013, 08:33 PM   #16
Lynx-lynx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taming View Post
I recently checked with Alexander Turic because someone had asked me on another forum how to change account details to another country in order to order books either not available to them or not available at prices they wanted. I checked because my read on this was that telling people explicitly how to circumvent geographical limitations seemed very much like telling people how to remove drm. This was his take on it as well.

My conclusion was that MR is serious when they say will not be a source of information about how to do things that may be illegal or which violate agreements with book sellers or publishers as expressed in Terms of Use or other agreements we may make when setting up accounts.

I don't blame them for being careful.
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Originally Posted by Mivo View Post
I feel that these are fundamentally different.

Removing DRM is essentially illegal in the US and in most countries of the EU. We may not agree with this, but it is what it is. Bypassing geographical restrictions by using means such as VPN is, as far as I know, not illegal anywhere in the western world. It is as legal as outsourcing jobs to development countries.

Vendors may try to criminalize this for reasons of wanting to maximize profit and control, but Amazon does not yet make laws. Amazon's TOS should remain limited to Amazon's site.
Oh yep, the Australian Government is certainly in favour of geo circumvention and there are several threads on MR about this.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:40 PM   #17
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My point was not to argue for against either, but rather to point out the MR policy.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taming View Post
I recently checked with Alexander Turic because someone had asked me on another forum how to change account details to another country in order to order books either not available to them or not available at prices they wanted. I checked because my read on this was that telling people explicitly how to circumvent geographical limitations seemed very much like telling people how to remove drm. This was his take on it as well.

My conclusion was that MR is serious when they say will not be a source of information about how to do things that may be illegal or which violate agreements with book sellers or publishers as expressed in Terms of Use or other agreements we may make when setting up accounts.

I don't blame them for being careful.
I'd like to point out that in the USA, their Supreme Court has ruled that purchasing books at a lower price in another country for resale in the USA does not constiture copyright infringement -- see Kirstaeng vs. John Wiley and Sons http://www.legalink.ch/Resources/New...y-Market-Goods.

Given that decision, it would be hard to argue that someone changing their IP address to avoid geolocation would be grounds for any legal action in the USA.

One legal beagle I do some work for is of the opinion that in Canada, under current laws, there is no basis for prosecuting someone for purchasing a legally produced copy of an ebook no matter where it was purchased unless it could be established the content of the purchase contravened Canadian law.

Regards,
David
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:46 AM   #19
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Thanks David,
It's good to know that I'm not contravening any laws by cross-border ebook shopping. Because I am paranoid about such things, your statement will help me sleep better.

Sincerely (posted without sarcasm),
W
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Old 09-17-2013, 01:39 AM   #20
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One legal beagle I do some work for is of the opinion that in Canada, under current laws, there is no basis for prosecuting someone for purchasing a legally produced copy of an ebook no matter where it was purchased unless it could be established the content of the purchase contravened Canadian law.

Regards,
David
David, when you create a Kobo account you also agree to the terms of use, which does include an agreement to use accurate and true information about your address. Legal prosecution for a criminal offense of fraud is separate from what Kobo might choose to do if you violate the agreement.

This is part of the Terms of Use linked from the bottom of every page.

Quote:
2. Registered Users.
The Service is open to the public but certain portions, components, content and features of the Service (including purchases or access to eBooks) are only available to individuals who register with Kobo and create a user account on the Service (each, a "Registered User"). If you are a Registered User then you agree to the following:

(i) in consideration of your use of the Service, you represent that you are of the age of majority in the jurisdiction in which you reside, or 13 years old or older up to the age of majority in the jurisdiction in which you reside with the express written consent of your parent or legal guardian, and are not a person barred from receiving services under the laws of the Province of Ontario and the federal laws of Canada or other applicable jurisdiction.You also agree to:

(a) provide true, accurate, current and complete information about yourself as prompted by any registration form(s) on the Service, including your geographical location and billing address (the "Registration Data"); and

(b) maintain and promptly update the Registration Data to keep it true, accurate, current and complete. If you provide any information that is untrue, inaccurate, not current or incomplete, Kobo has the right to suspend or terminate your account and refuse any and all current or future use of the Service (or any portion thereof);
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Old 09-17-2013, 03:34 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taming View Post
David, when you create a Kobo account you also agree to the terms of use, which does include an agreement to use accurate and true information about your address. Legal prosecution for a criminal offense of fraud is separate from what Kobo might choose to do if you violate the agreement.

This is part of the Terms of Use linked from the bottom of every page.
Does lying or providing misleading information the same as fraud under the law? Being Canadian I was curious and the answers seem to indicate that a lie must be intentional, and the lie must be intended to cause harm, and the lie must actually cause harm.

Whether Kobo would be harmed by selling someone a book is debateable, especially if you weren't getting a cheaper price, but couldn't buy the book any other way.

AFAIK this type of misrepresentation is not charged as fraud. Using false ID to obtain alcohol, can cause someone to sell you a drink and they may be fined. Passing a bad check or using a stolen credit card. All involve misrepresentation but are AFAIK tried as theft etc. without fraud charges unless the damages are excessive.

I am not sure violating Kobo's agreement is legally fraud in Canada, or that buying an ebook using a false name is a specific offense. I can't think of any way it could make it's way into a courtroom if it were.

Not saying it is right to lie, but sadly I have been known to do so. Not me I cried when a parent asked who ate that piece of cake

Worst that can happen with lying to Kobo is they will cut off your account and you would have make a new one or buy your books elsewhere.

Personally I would never lie to Kobo because I am not fond enough of them to want to buy anything from them anymore.

Helen
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Old 09-17-2013, 04:27 AM   #22
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I have 2 Kobo accounts, each with their own email address, and each with name and address etc fields completed.

The country can vary depending on which country I choose to tick off on the occasions that I price check Kobo's sale price in different countries; or when I change countries because of geo restrictions.

However, and this is the important point, my credit card info is always accurate.

All legal conduct and behaviour in Australia, where I sit and use my Kobo accounts from.
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Old 09-17-2013, 02:27 PM   #23
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David, when you create a Kobo account you also agree to the terms of use, which does include an agreement to use accurate and true information about your address. Legal prosecution for a criminal offense of fraud is separate from what Kobo might choose to do if you violate the agreement.
It's going to be a bit of stretch, even for a lawyer, to equate my physical address/billing address for a credit card with an IP address. If I sit in a Starbucks in Portland and order an ebook, am I violating the terms of use? What if I am in Cabo San Lucas (nice place to visit but not sure if I'd want to live there long term)?

I think quoting sections D and E(g) would have been more relevant.

OTOH, one opinion I was given in a similar discussion a while back is that since the majority of people are behind routers and using RFC-1918 private addresses, such clauses are basically meaningless. My current IP address is 172.16.231.76 which has no geolocation information -- it's a private and non-routable address. Depending on the routing and network load, that internal address can be NATted and routed so as to show up as at least 4 different locations.

Or for hoots, how about when using an ISP where you are physically in Canada but your IP address geolocates to California or Texas? Or you are in Australia but your ISP geolocates you to the USA? Or the Texas school district which Google decided was in Alberta so their Google searches redirected to using google.ca? See http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventure...ols-canada-383 for more on that one -- personally, I thought it was rather funny at the time.

Regards,
David

Last edited by DNSB; 09-17-2013 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:38 PM   #24
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Well, in my opinion it's a stretch to get anxious that Mobileread would get shut down just because people occasionally posted links to DRM removal tools here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even Apprentice Alf's site has been around for quite some time and neither it nor wordpress.com have been shut down, so why would anyone with a few posts linking there be? I saw a funny report over there that one of Alf's posts had been blocked from Google search results based on a DMCA complaint, but this wasn't even about ebooks at all, apparently it happened because some artist named Calibre thought they were pirating his songs or something... Tell me that isn't funny.

I think the whole thing is more about whether a site wants to be seen as "mainstream" and attract "law-abiding" people, including those who think it's important to strictly obey any kind of law, no matter how ill-conceived. It's like for some reason nowadays there's no middle ground between that and being seen as a "rogue" site where all those who go there must be "pirates". If a physical bookstore told you you could only read the books you bought there in your home and not on a train, a park bench or anywhere else, everyone would think it outrageous, but for some reason it's OK for ebook sellers to demand lock-in to their device and if you're not OK with that you're suddenly a "pirate" who "circumvents" stuff. More like these companies are trying to circumvent our common sense rights to read the books we buy wherever and however we like.

I only just became a member here so I'm not saying I know best, but anyway I think if it's allowed to direct others to search for Apprentice Alf, the end result is exactly the same as linking to it directly, at least if we're talking about "the spirit of the law". Like in my own case, I totally didn't need the now removed direct link someone posted in that other thread, the roundabout talk was enough for me to easily find the Kepub DRM crack. So if I were a lawyer I could probably argue that a verbal explanation of how to get somewhere is no different than writing down the address of the place. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't have a problem with the current policy here, but if someone thinks it's the perfect way to cover your asses then I have my doubts about that.
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:18 PM   #25
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I have no skin in the game, from my POV and certainly did not want to open that often discussed can of worms regarding legal or ethical issues. I was just providing information from the Terms of Use that I thought might be relevant. Some people have never read it.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:23 PM   #26
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I have no skin in the game, from my POV and certainly did not want to open that often discussed can of worms regarding legal or ethical issues. I was just providing information from the Terms of Use that I thought might be relevant. Some people have never read it.
I really can't blame many people for not reading many of the EULAs, terms of service, etc. that they are presented with. Check out the 56 pages of the iTunes agreement which, in my opinion, is a guaranteed cure for insomnia.

OTOH, you have some humourous clauses in some agreements -- check out Gamestation and their immortal soul clause or one website where part of the EULA was that you agreed on demand and at your expense to send your first born child to an address designated by the website unless you opted out by clicking a check box. Or the iTunes weaponization clause "including, without limitation, the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons." which, if nothing else is lousy English.

Then there was the ASUS hardware warranty:

There is damage caused by natural disaster, intentional or unintentional misuse, acts of war, space invasions, abuse, neglect, improper maintenance, or use under abnormal conditions.

Makes you wonder how many of their customers had hardware damaged by alien attacks.




Regards,
David

Last edited by DNSB; 09-18-2013 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Typos! Why are there so many typos? Do they breed in the depths of my keyboard?
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Old 09-18-2013, 04:14 PM   #27
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Old 09-18-2013, 09:34 PM   #28
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Well, in my opinion it's a stretch to get anxious that Mobileread would get shut down just because people occasionally posted links to DRM removal tools here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even Apprentice Alf's site has been around for quite some time and neither it nor wordpress.com have been shut down, so why would anyone with a few posts linking there be? I saw a funny report over there that one of Alf's posts had been blocked from Google search results based on a DMCA complaint, but this wasn't even about ebooks at all, apparently it happened because some artist named Calibre thought they were pirating his songs or something... Tell me that isn't funny.

I think the whole thing is more about whether a site wants to be seen as "mainstream" and attract "law-abiding" people, including those who think it's important to strictly obey any kind of law, no matter how ill-conceived. It's like for some reason nowadays there's no middle ground between that and being seen as a "rogue" site where all those who go there must be "pirates". If a physical bookstore told you you could only read the books you bought there in your home and not on a train, a park bench or anywhere else, everyone would think it outrageous, but for some reason it's OK for ebook sellers to demand lock-in to their device and if you're not OK with that you're suddenly a "pirate" who "circumvents" stuff. More like these companies are trying to circumvent our common sense rights to read the books we buy wherever and however we like.

I only just became a member here so I'm not saying I know best, but anyway I think if it's allowed to direct others to search for Apprentice Alf, the end result is exactly the same as linking to it directly, at least if we're talking about "the spirit of the law". Like in my own case, I totally didn't need the now removed direct link someone posted in that other thread, the roundabout talk was enough for me to easily find the Kepub DRM crack. So if I were a lawyer I could probably argue that a verbal explanation of how to get somewhere is no different than writing down the address of the place. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't have a problem with the current policy here, but if someone thinks it's the perfect way to cover your asses then I have my doubts about that.
Hey it gives people a chance to get all cutesy-cutesy with what they think are oblique references. Makes them feel like they are in the know

Helen
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Old 09-19-2013, 05:40 AM   #29
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Hey it gives people a chance to get all cutesy-cutesy with what they think are oblique references. Makes them feel like they are in the know

Helen
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:48 AM   #30
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Hey it gives people a chance to get all cutesy-cutesy with what they think are oblique references. Makes them feel like they are in the know

Helen


Alfinizing teh Epubs makes me feel soooo l33t!

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