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Old 03-24-2008, 10:00 AM   #31
HarryT
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Presumably, however, the people who engage it such activities do regard it as "OK" (at least according to their personal code of ethics) or they wouldn't do it.

I suspect that "TallMomof2" is a she, by the way .
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:12 AM   #32
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Presumably, however, the people who engage it such activities do regard it as "OK" (at least according to their personal code of ethics) or they wouldn't do it.
Sure, whoever do it they regard it as OK. But indastry is not affected. It doesn't know about the people now - when they can download the content, they would know about the people tomorrow if it were impossible to download the content.

The same about the train (although the comparison is not 100% proper - the train actually carries the body - additional weight thus tear and wear applies directly). The train would run regardless of existance of people who are trying to sneak on it and travels without a ticket because whether this group exists or not, another group of people who obey the law (either because they are honest or because they are afraid to be caught) would exist regardless of a "sneaky group".

However, there is one a very important thing. If railway service when attempting to reinforce the law would harm/cause major inconvenience to people who are paying for the service today and would virtually do no harm to the "sneaky group", then railway service would face an increase of numbers of "sneaky group" and decrease in the group of people who pay for the service. People who pay would get angry and frustrated and some of them would "cease" being honest.

That's what DRM is doing today to ebook market.
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:37 AM   #33
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However, there is one a very important thing. If railway service when attempting to reinforce the law would harm/cause major inconvenience to people who are paying for the service today and would virtually do no harm to the "sneaky group", then railway service would face an increase of numbers of "sneaky group" and decrease in the group of people who pay for the service. People who pay would get angry and frustrated and some of them would "cease" being honest.
The day that happens, the train will no longer have a profitable base, and it will stop running, leaving honest and dishonest people stuck.

Or they will beef up security and place guards on every train entrance, with the authority to arrest on sight any illegal boarders.

That's what pirates will do to the e-book market.

Something to think about.
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:42 AM   #34
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Or they will beef up security and place guards on every train entrance, with the authority to arrest on sight any illegal boarders.

Something to think about.
The only way guards could stop illegal boarders is to stop everyone and check all tickets. This is an excellent metaphor for DRM: If you harass the legitimate customers, they will go away.

Thanks, Steve.
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:50 AM   #35
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The day that happens, the train will no longer have a profitable base, and it will stop running, leaving honest and dishonest people stuck.

Or they will beef up security and place guards on every train entrance, with the authority to arrest on sight any illegal boarders.
Scenario no.1
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the train will no longer have a profitable base, and it will stop running, leaving honest and dishonest people stuck.
Will not happen. Why? Because railway service will not benefit at all.

Scenario no.2
Quote:
Or they will beef up security and place guards on every train entrance, with the authority to arrest on sight any illegal boarders
As long as the security measures do not pose any problems to honest customers...who cares?

And here we are back to what you were saying: tracking system , watermarks etc. No one said it would be wrong. What is wrong is - DRM as we have today. It is horrible and punish only honest guys.
If we go back to train - they increase security and every time you travel, you will have to wait in a long queue for them to check every single person before letting them in. Will you keep on using the service? Most likely not. You will look for alternatives.

Some people will still use it but railway service will loose.
Just like it happens to movie and music industries today.
Maybe 50 years ago when you had a choise of only 1-2, maybe 3 different types of entertaiment then you would cling to whatever you have no matter what. Today? You have so many alternatives that if one thing doesn't work you just walk away and try something else.
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:51 AM   #36
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The only way guards could stop illegal boarders is to stop everyone and check all tickets. This is an excellent metaphor for DRM: If you harass the legitimate customers, they will go away.

Thanks, Steve.
LOL. We came to the same conclusion
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:55 AM   #37
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The only way guards could stop illegal boarders is to stop everyone and check all tickets. This is an excellent metaphor for DRM: If you harass the legitimate customers, they will go away.

Thanks, Steve.
... which is exactly why trains DO have ticket inspectors. It's the minority of people who try to get a "free ride" which affects the honest majority. Just like DRM.
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:01 AM   #38
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... which is exactly why trains DO have ticket inspectors. It's the minority of people who try to get a "free ride" which affects the honest majority. Just like DRM.
The way it affects honest people is so trivial in comparison to DRM that it might be considered non existant.
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:18 AM   #39
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Nate and Astra, you suggest legit customers will go away if presented with too many obstacles. Not necessarily. They don't always have alternatives. (Not everyone, for instance, can afford to buy a car and bypass the train.) And they can always demand the service to fix the problem, if they want it to work for them.

Services (like trains) know this, and they want to continue to function well for their paying customers, so they rarely have to be told twice to fix a problem that drives their legitimate customers away.

And as for customers: I think we (and too many others) are seeing this from the wrong perspective: The idea that laws and rules are there to inconvenience us. In fact, laws and rules are there to inconvenience the illegal users that essentially steal services that we paid for... they are the ones that inconvenience us, and the laws are there to stop them from doing so.

So, instead of yelling at a ticket conductor to speed up the line, you should be yelling at the people trying to illegally board, and keeping them out of the line. Or, if you're too squeamish to do so, install a cop to do that job.

Tickets, please.
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:24 AM   #40
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So, instead of yelling at a ticket conductor to speed up the line, you should be yelling at the people trying to illegally board, and keeping them out of the line. Or, if you're too squeamish to do so, install a cop to do that job.

Tickets, please.

Disagree. I paid my money for the ticket, so I am going to yell at people whom I paid my money, not some mystic evildoers.

I paid my money to a certain service, it is their job to provide a service on an acceptable level or I will have to look for alternatives. Maybe the alternatives will not be so convenient but they will be either cheaper or for free.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:06 PM   #41
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Disagree. I paid my money for the ticket, so I am going to yell at people whom I paid my money, not some mystic evildoers.
I'm not talking about "mystic evildoers"... I'm talking about the guy right in front of you, whom you know doesn't have a ticket. He's the one inconveniencing you, why don't you say something to him, push him out of line, and do you and all the legal train riders a service? Or call for a cop? But anyway...

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I paid my money to a certain service, it is their job to provide a service on an acceptable level or I will have to look for alternatives. Maybe the alternatives will not be so convenient but they will be either cheaper or for free.
Will it? Buying a car will cost you more money. If you want cheap or free, you'll be walking or taking a bike. Will that really equal a slight inconvenience over the train service (for, say, a 20 mile trip)? Or are you better off taking the extra effort to make sure you can use the train?

Or will you just jump the train illegally, and become part of the problem?

It's up to all responsible, tax-paying citizens to do their part to make sure society operates the way it's supposed to, whether you do it yourself, or call upon people who are charged with doing it for you (like the authorities). Simply rolling over and letting illegal activities happen doesn't help anybody except the scofflaws, and it will only grind society to a halt.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:13 PM   #42
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I'm not talking about "mystic evildoers"... I'm talking about the guy right in front of you, whom you know doesn't have a ticket. He's the one inconveniencing you, why don't you say something to him, push him out of line, and do you and all the legal train riders a service? Or call for a cop? But anyway...
Your statement makes no sense. How do I know he didn't buy a ticket? If the guy in line in front of me knows there is a guard, then he will have a ticket (or not get in line). Assuming that the armed guard stops the non-payers, the guards will then be inconveniencing only legit customers. How is this a good idea?

Your argument seems to be based on the concept of punishment of a group for the actions of an individual (who may or may not be in that group). That's completely BS, if you ask me.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:16 PM   #43
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This is a really interesting discussion. It looks like Steve is going to work his way through all the reasons why DRM doesn't work.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:17 PM   #44
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Look at this from the proper perspective: It's the pirates that are penalizing you, by taking things for free that you had to pay for, and thereby causing protective laws to be written.
Pirates steal software and music too. But you don't see software running to add DRM or music running to add more DRM.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:31 PM   #45
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Your statement makes no sense. How do I know he didn't buy a ticket? If the guy in line in front of me knows there is a guard, then he will have a ticket (or not get in line). Assuming that the armed guard stops the non-payers, the guards will then be inconveniencing only legit customers. How is this a good idea?

Your argument seems to be based on the concept of punishment of a group for the actions of an individual (who may or may not be in that group). That's completely BS, if you ask me.
Maybe he has a counterfeit ticket, and he hopes to get past the guard using it. (Hey, Harry started the train analogy, not me!)

When the guard stops the non-payers (and the fake ticket holders), he's inconveniencing the non-payers. He's making things more convenient for the payers, because they know thanks to the guard, they will get on the train and get seats. See how thinking of it from the proper perspective works?

How is the group being punished? By standing in line longer? Gee, that sucks... but it's better than not getting on the train because the non-payers took your seat. If that means waiting a bit longer... bring an e-book.

By the way, none of this is being addressed to support DRM... but to point out how individuals, working together, make for a better system than "every man for himself," as well as to emphasize the importance of recognizing where the problem actually lies... not with the laws, but with the law-breakers.

I don't understand why everyone thinks I'm defending DRM... there are other ways of preventing piracy.

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