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Old 08-09-2013, 09:29 AM   #46
PeterT
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@Agama: Where can we find your plugin?
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:57 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agama View Post
I explained why the class="number" may not be an extra class but you have not answered this point; you have simply re-asserted that it is an extra class.
I gave an example how it could be markupped without an "extra class", just with em. And I explained, why I think, that it's the better markup for that purpose.

When it's true, that many devices cannot interprete a simple descendant selector like "h1 em" than I would suggest an
<h1>Chapter <em class="chapter-number">3</h1>

But may be I missunderstood you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agama View Post
My plugin does [...] but additionally applies Markdown extentions to support <span> and to allow css named styles to be applied to elements. (Standard markdown does not allow this.)
Hhmm. I can't imagine the whole workflow still. Because I've no experience with markdown.
The easiest way to understand it, would be to post a link to an epub document before and after the treatment by the plugin.
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Old 08-09-2013, 11:08 AM   #48
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Maybe I'm missing something here. Why not experiment yourself with the tools that are readily available and see for yourself?

The calibre epub to txt conversion is easily done, as is the conversion from txt back to epub.

Experiment for yourself!
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:07 PM   #49
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@PeterT

Of course I could experiment on my own. But one of benefits of communities are: not everybody has to do all experiments again.

Please don't missunderstand me: I never expect any help or answers. I appreciate it.

A conversion to TXT will destroy important semantic. When it doesn't destroy it, it's not a TXT conversion
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:24 PM   #50
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I get it now; you're a philosopher. You don't really want the tool. You want the discussion about why you can't have the tool. The fact of the matter is: if there were a way to make all markup automatically conform to any individual's personal preferences/conventions at the touch of a button, you wouldn't need to ask where to find it. Everyone would already be using it.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:34 PM   #51
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@DiapDealer
You are getting personally. That's not necessary.

Of course there's no tool which does conversions complete automatically. That's obvious and we do have to talk about it.

I'm just interested in the workflow of experienced source code cleaners. No more no less.
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:52 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibu View Post
@DiapDealer
You are getting personally. That's not necessary.
I may be getting personal, but I'm certainly not "attacking" anyone personally (unless calling someone a philosopher is an insult I'm unaware of).

For better or worse, I put the people who come seeking help of a technological nature into two categories: technicians and philosophers. I can usually help the former, but I've learned I lack the necessary skills to help the latter. So to them, I usually say "good luck and good day" ... sincerely.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:12 PM   #53
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@DiapDealer
Thanks for telling, that you didn't meant "philosopher" as an attack.

Well, I like several aspects in public discussions. Those types, which result in a practical solution. And others, which open the mind, which induce a rethinking of your own practice, your view, your utopias, ...

Be sure, I'm not a philosopher. I want to edit real epubs.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:25 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibu View Post
@PeterT

Of course I could experiment on my own. But one of benefits of communities are: not everybody has to do all experiments again.

Please don't missunderstand me: I never expect any help or answers. I appreciate it.

A conversion to TXT will destroy important semantic. When it doesn't destroy it, it's not a TXT conversion
Did you even bother to take a look at the ePub I'd posted earlier in this thread? All I did post conversion epub - txt - epub was to remove the various "id=" in the text, and convert the CSS entries from ".calibre" to "p {" etc.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:43 PM   #55
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@PeterT
Sure I took a look at the ePub of post #30.

What I didn't understood is, how you kept/reconstructed the EM inside the paragraphs when it's a conversion of epub to txt.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:51 PM   #56
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THAT IS THE WHOLE IDEA OF MARKDOWN.

Markdown is a means of marking up plan text.
From a web page that describes it
Code:
A First Level Header
====================

A Second Level Header
---------------------

Now is the time for all good men to come to
the aid of their country. This is just a
regular paragraph.

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
dog's back.

### Header 3

> This is a blockquote.
> 
> This is the second paragraph in the blockquote.
>
> ## This is an H2 in a blockquote
is interpreted as being
Code:
<h1>A First Level Header</h1>

<h2>A Second Level Header</h2>

<p>Now is the time for all good men to come to
the aid of their country. This is just a
regular paragraph.</p>

<p>The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
dog's back.</p>

<h3>Header 3</h3>

<blockquote>
    <p>This is a blockquote.</p>

    <p>This is the second paragraph in the blockquote.</p>

    <h2>This is an H2 in a blockquote</h2>
</blockquote>
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:55 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibu View Post
@William Ockham
I appreciate such a direct criticism, that's first.

Which rational motives do you see for the jailers to use stoneage rendering machines on their devices?
Why do they like it, when it's complicate (instead of easy) to create rich layouts for books with the full possibilities of modern HTML and CSS?

We read answers in this thread of a professionell who suffers because of the lack of standardconformity of the several devices. Which advantages do the producers of devices have by that suffering?
The short answer is that they believe (and I think they are correct) that they sell more ebooks at less cost this way. The long answer is, well, I find it quite unpleasant to talk about compared to other things I could do with my time. I would charge thousands of dollars for that answer. Folks without thousands of dollars should look elsewhere.

I think that the total number of people in the world who share your concerns and goals is less than the number of people commenting on this thread. I think you have gotten excellent responses and suggestions on how to approach your self-appointed task. In my view, you are unlikely to find better information anywhere else.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:58 PM   #58
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To elaborate:

Original ePub
Spoiler:

Code:
<body>
<div>
<div class="center"><img alt="Three Men in a Boat (TO SAY NOTHING OF THE DOG)" class="wideimg" src="../Images/header1.gif"/>
</div>

<hr class="spacing"/>
<h3>CHAPTER I.</h3>
<p class="blockquote">Three Invalids. - Sufferings of George
and Harris. - A victim to one hundred and seven fatal maladies. -
Useful prescriptions. - Cure for liver complaint in children. - We
agree that we are overworked, and need rest. - A week on the rolling
deep? - George suggests the river. - Montmorency lodges an objection. -
Original motion carried by majority of three to one.</p>

<div class="lettrine"><img alt="T" src="../Images/t.gif"/></div>
<p class="initial"><span class="first">HERE</span> were four of us &mdash; George, and William Samuel Harris, and myself, and Montmorency. We were sitting in my room, smoking, and talking about how bad we were &mdash; bad from a medical point of view I mean, of course.</p>

<p>We were all feeling seedy, and
    we were getting quite nervous about it. Harris said he felt such extraordinary
    fits of giddiness come over him at times, that he hardly knew what he was
    doing; and then George said that <em>he</em> had fits of giddiness too, and
    hardly knew what <em>he</em> was doing. With me, it was my liver that was
    out of order. I knew it was my liver that was out of order, because I had
    just been reading a patent liver-pill circular, in which were detailed the
    various symptoms by which a man could tell when his liver was out of order.
  I had them all.</p>


Text Conversion (markup)
Spoiler:
Code:
### CHAPTER I.

*Three Invalids. - Sufferings of George and Harris. - A victim to one hundred and seven fatal maladies. - Useful prescriptions. - Cure for liver complaint in children. - We agree that we are overworked, and need rest. - A week on the rolling deep? - George suggests the river. - Montmorency lodges an objection. - Original motion carried by majority of three to one.*



HERE were four of us — George, and William Samuel Harris, and myself, and Montmorency. We were sitting in my room, smoking, and talking about how bad we were — bad from a medical point of view I mean, of course.

We were all feeling seedy, and we were getting quite nervous about it. Harris said he felt such extraordinary fits of giddiness come over him at times, that he hardly knew what he was doing; and then George said that *he* had fits of giddiness too, and hardly knew what *he* was doing. With me, it was my liver that was out of order. I knew it was my liver that was out of order, because I had just been reading a patent liver-pill circular, in which were detailed the various symptoms by which a man could tell when his liver was out of order. I had them all.


Conversion back to ePub
Spoiler:
Code:
<h3 class="calibre6" id="chapter-i">CHAPTER I.</h3>
<p class="calibre2"><em class="calibre10">Three Invalids. - Sufferings of George and Harris. - A victim to one hundred and seven fatal maladies. - Useful prescriptions. - Cure for liver complaint in children. - We agree that we are overworked, and need rest. - A week on the rolling deep? - George suggests the river. - Montmorency lodges an objection. - Original motion carried by majority of three to one.</em></p>
<p class="calibre2">HERE were four of us — George, and William Samuel Harris, and myself, and Montmorency. We were sitting in my room, smoking, and talking about how bad we were — bad from a medical point of view I mean, of course.</p>
<p class="calibre2">We were all feeling seedy, and we were getting quite nervous about it. Harris said he felt such extraordinary fits of giddiness come over him at times, that he hardly knew what he was doing; and then George said that <em class="calibre10">he</em> had fits of giddiness too, and hardly knew what <em class="calibre10">he</em> was doing. With me, it was my liver that was out of order. I knew it was my liver that was out of order, because I had just been reading a patent liver-pill circular, in which were detailed the various symptoms by which a man could tell when his liver was out of order. I had them all.</p>


My Cleaned up code
Spoiler:
Code:
<h3 id="chapter-i">CHAPTER I.</h3>

  <p><em>Three Invalids. - Sufferings of George and Harris. - A victim to one hundred and seven fatal maladies. - Useful prescriptions. - Cure for liver complaint in children. - We agree that we are overworked, and need rest. - A week on the rolling deep? - George suggests the river. - Montmorency lodges an objection. - Original motion carried by majority of three to one.</em></p>

  <p>HERE were four of us — George, and William Samuel Harris, and myself, and Montmorency. We were sitting in my room, smoking, and talking about how bad we were — bad from a medical point of view I mean, of course.</p>

  <p>We were all feeling seedy, and we were getting quite nervous about it. Harris said he felt such extraordinary fits of giddiness come over him at times, that he hardly knew what he was doing; and then George said that <em>he</em> had fits of giddiness too, and hardly knew what <em>he</em> was doing. With me, it was my liver that was out of order. I knew it was my liver that was out of order, because I had just been reading a patent liver-pill circular, in which were detailed the various symptoms by which a man could tell when his liver was out of order. I had them all.</p>
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:29 PM   #59
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@PeterT
Thanks. Now I got it. Sorry that I'v been so slow on the uptake.

@William Ockham
I disagree with your assumptions (less costs, selling more).
And I disagree with your assumptions of the number of users who would benefit from a better markup.

I realized, that I do not only bother you in this thread.
Therefore I will withdraw from it.

It was not my intention to go into a discussion "What is good XHTML and what is useful for". The thread get that direction. I took part. I stop it now.
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:52 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibu View Post
Which rational motives do you see for the jailers to use stoneage rendering machines on their devices?
Why do they like it, when it's complicate (instead of easy) to create rich layouts for books with the full possibilities of modern HTML and CSS?
Because they got started with stoneage rendering tools when those were the most modern and efficient ones available, and they work tolerably well (at least as far as "produce ebooks that the general public is willing to pay for"); they have no incentive to follow the cutting edge of the industry and re-tool their production process with new software every six months.

Quote:
We read answers in this thread of a professionell who suffers because of the lack of standard conformity of the several devices. Which advantages do the producers of devices have by that suffering?
Standardization would meant total market dominance by whoever creates the standard. All manufacturers--of ebooks and devices--are invested in that creator *not* being their competitor. That means deliberately not doing things the way the competitors do it, regardless of how well that works.

If one method had a sharp, noticeable, commercial advantage over the others, it would catch on. (See: dominance of epub; decline of LIT and LRF.) However, the general public does not care whether chapter headers are "properly" formatted H1, or <span> sections with specific formatting details. They care that chapter headers start on a new page and are bold. (Sometimes. Sometimes they don't even care about that.)

"Clean" ebook files are for formatting fanatics; readers, especially paying readers, aren't seeing the code. Readers care about whether the book "looks nice," but that's a subjective standard; there's no universal agreement on the best basic look. (I prefer indented paragraphs with no space between. Many readers prefer flush-left with spaces between. I like slab serifs; some people like serifs; some prefer sans. And so on.)

There is no universal method because there is no way that works "best," especially with many specific requirements in play for niche markets that don't matter for the larger crowd. And there's no cooperation to create a universal system, because the major developers are competitors.
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