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Old 06-19-2013, 02:34 AM   #16
Prestidigitweeze
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Landmark bars are far less useful meeting places these days because development tends to destroy or co-opt whatever dives most preoccupied writers can afford. People are always having to find new places to meet because the old ones either close down or become tourist sites (cf. The Cedar Bar in NYC and its former history of attracting writers and artists, including east coast beats and most of the abstract expressionists).

Then again, that might be why the virtual Flying Monkeys Saloon seems so inviting.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:43 AM   #17
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I'm pleased to see this thread bubbling along - thank you all for your contributions.

I can't get onto this Forum much of late, but my question was genuine and the subject of 'real' chatter around me for some time over many occasions. (I allocated time last night to respond to this thread - and darn - the maintenance thingo was happening).

My perspective is that neither class nor money are influences to the meeting of minds for a chatter, and that these conversations can take place by accident as well as in planned events.

I hadn't really considered the large venue events or work organised events as mentioned by several posters .... they seem rather a monologish construct, albeit with questions taken no doubt. But if they are avenues for some to absorb and appreciate new perspectives (irrespective of a dialogue between all of the individuals present) then that's what works for them.

@Harry I take your point re the Salons of centuries ago with respect to the idle rich, but I consider that talented people, irrespective of their field are probably never idle for long.

So, what I'm gathering so far is that there's a broad dispersal of thinking going on, via different comms media, and reaching audiences who happen to find that media or who have been invited to attend eg workplace (or other) talk by a given person/s.

I guess also, that people of a similar talent ilk, eg painting or photography etc tend to hang around together and would be more likely to know (and perhaps attend) functions/activities where the really talented in that genre go to hang out. Like the writers who hung out at Les Deux Maggots, or Gertrude Stein's place in Paris (also known as a Salon, from memory).

On another point - I don't think politicians have any claim in the great minds category (not while in politics), but of course, that is a selective judgement. And nor do I think political discourse as a topic of chatter has any more right of place or consumption of quality chat than any other topic. I do think that all topics are on the table for discussion though.

Enough from me!
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:37 AM   #18
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On another point - I don't think politicians have any claim in the great minds category (not while in politics), but of course, that is a selective judgement.
There certainly have been politicians who have been "great minds". I don't think many people would deny that Cicero was a great thinker, for example, while also being a politician.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:40 AM   #19
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There certainly have been politicians who have been "great minds". I don't think many people would deny that Cicero was a great thinker, for example, while also being a politician.
You do not have to be stupid to be a politician, but there does seem to be more of them than the odds would suggest.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:45 AM   #20
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You do not have to be stupid to be a politician, but there does seem to be more of them than the odds would suggest.
Apache
Unfortunately they are like the tips of the iceberg of general stupidity in this country.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:58 AM   #21
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I'm pleased to see this thread bubbling along - thank you all for your contributions.
It could be argued that the great 'thinkers' and 'creators' salons of today are forums like this where people gather after hours to share ideas and experiences.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:35 AM   #22
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Also, forums such as this often have a particular focus at their heart, though how closely that agenda is adhered to varies greatly. MR, for example, frequently strays away from the subject of reading on electronic devices. This meeting of like-minded people who have a shared interest and often a shared level of intellect, forms its own little salon.

Likewise with a cat forum I belong to, although the membership is somewhat different to that of MR: predominantly female, very caring, but a little less intellectual; thus creating its own meeting of like-minded people.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:33 AM   #23
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Likewise with a cat forum I belong to, although the membership is somewhat different to that of MR: predominantly female, very caring, but a little less intellectual; thus creating its own meeting of like-minded people.
I should seek out a monkey forum with like-minded monkey brains; dessert and otherwise
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:55 AM   #24
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:34 PM   #25
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I wish there was a tavern within stumbling distance of my home. Used to enjoy decompressing after work. Good chat. Some ideas.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:12 PM   #26
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I've had some great 'salons' after hours at science fiction conventions. I don't always remember what we talked about, but it kept me up until 5AM, so it must have been interesting.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:18 PM   #27
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Artists and thinkers who can find rich people to cultivate them are rarer than people claim -- especially now. There's a reason so many of them die poor.

If you're open to talking to people like that, and won't be passive-aggressive or say spiteful things, then I doubt you'd be left out.

You don't often hear from them on internet forums because of the constant barrage of what Roland Barthes called "neither-nor criticism," but places like the Nightmare Network are relatively free of that (since the influences are eclectic but the central genre tends to be dismissed as tasteless -- which is a great mix if you're looking for erudition without close-mindedness).

Facebook can also be an excellent place for discussions. Befriend a few writers whom you might think are out of your league and you'll soon be talking to them about whatever subjects they introduce.
Thinking about this some more, I don't think the real benefit of the salons was intellectual. Ideas are really a dime a dozen. It's effecting them into money that is the hard part. The salons were meeting places of influential people (whether in ideas, industry, government,...). The largest benefit was probably the networking among them. You could bring an idea, and then get help in effecting it, and make money from it. So, although online forums where ideas are hashed out can be a help to an artist, it's not the same as being among the movers and shakers of the world.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:56 PM   #28
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I should seek out a monkey forum with like-minded monkey brains; dessert and otherwise
Would everyone be too busy seeing no evil, hearing no evil, and thinking no evel .....mmmmm .....
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:07 PM   #29
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Thinking about this some more, I don't think the real benefit of the salons was intellectual. Ideas are really a dime a dozen. It's effecting them into money that is the hard part. The salons were meeting places of influential people (whether in ideas, industry, government,...). The largest benefit was probably the networking among them. You could bring an idea, and then get help in effecting it, and make money from it. So, although online forums where ideas are hashed out can be a help to an artist, it's not the same as being among the movers and shakers of the world.
Yes, a side benefit to having ideas and seeing them progressed financially and perhaps administratively is to find oneself in the company of rich and influential people.

But some of the bigger people movements have emerged from those clusters of people with big ideas and little to no financial or administrative power. I'm thinking along the lines of the origins of the green movement, and other movements that had a long chat gestation amongst like and unalike thinkers, and little initial money and/or power/influence amongst the movers and shakers.

I suppose that my appreciation of a salon or meeting of thinkers and creators doesn't mean that anything constructive need come out of the discourse .... although it may. I see the discourse as a more pleasurable event where ideas are simply flung around (so to speak, lol) according to the events of the day as well as bigger picture ideology.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:11 PM   #30
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It could be argued that the great 'thinkers' and 'creators' salons of today are forums like this where people gather after hours to share ideas and experiences.
Gotta admit, it's easy to like that thinking
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