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Old 06-12-2013, 08:45 AM   #151
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Do you need a subscription to be able to read the original article or is there a scan somewhere? I only found a scan of the rebuttal article so I'm still trying to get a proper sense of the original.

I wouldn't mind reading it myself and assessing my own feelings on it - as an exercise if nothing else. It's not something that's worth a subscription price to me though.
I looked and could only find quotes and excerpts.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:49 AM   #152
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I think the [other] offensive bit here is that it's 'lady' editor, not 'female' editor. 'Lady' and 'gentleman' when appended to a job-role tend to have connotations of amateur/dilettante/hobbyist that 'male' and 'female' don't. Think 'gentleman-thief' or 'lady explorer'. Comes from the days when ladies and gentlemen didn't have to work, so if they had a job it was a hobby rather than a necessity.

And surely female editors aren't so unusual (unlike nine-foot-tall giants) that it would be natural to remark on it every time one is mentioned? In medicine nowadays, the proportions of the sexes is so near equal that a doctor's gender isn't mentioned unless it's relevant (e.g. a patient has requested a male, or a female, doctor for modesty reasons).
Again, haven't read the article, but the whole article was supposed to be on women in Sci/fi -- a historical type of thing. So I would assume that it was established early on that they would be talking about women. There shouldn't be a need to add lady. But not having read the article, I can't say if it was overall attitude that set people off, trolls, or what.

I did read the rebuttals as those were posted online (I think they were scans.)
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:23 AM   #153
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I get the lady adjective thing now.

But I'm still saying "sir" and "ma'am" like I always have, even before the Navy, no matter what you people think.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:25 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Fluribus View Post
Depends on how unusual it is. It's a normal human tendency to comment on the unusual.

"Our nine-foot tall editor will take a look at it. Seriously! Dudes a giant."
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:54 AM   #155
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I get the lady adjective thing now.

But I'm still saying "sir" and "ma'am" like I always have, even before the Navy, no matter what you people think.
Nothing wrong with a honest term of respect and/or good manners. It's usually possible to tell from context and tone the difference between people who have good manners and people who are being condescending, even when the words are the same.

[And I don't call my mother-in-law by her first name. I just can't do it. The woman is nearly fifty years older than me and calling her by her first name is just... wrong. Miz Kate is the closest I get. So I know what you mean about 'sir' and 'ma'am'.]
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:47 PM   #156
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Just treat people with respect and courtesy. That's what I taught my children.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:14 PM   #157
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I suspect you all are pretty tired with this whole episode, but a recent incident involving Theodore Beale aka Vox Day is now making the rounds.

N. K. Jemisin was Guest of Honor at Continuum in Australia where she noted, without naming names, the recent candidacy of a certain writer for President of SFWA.

Vox Day wasn't pleased. He used the SFWA Authors twitter feed to post a rant against Jemisin, calling her an “ignorant half-savage” and saying that “self-defense laws have been put in place to let whites defend their lives and their property from people, like her, who are half-savages engaged in attacking them.”

Blogger Amal El-Mohtar is asking SFWA members to write to the board to expel Theodore Bealle from SFWA.

http://amalelmohtar.com/2013/06/13/c...ale-from-sfwa/
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:57 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by jgaiser View Post
Vox Day wasn't pleased. He used the SFWA Authors twitter feed to post a rant against Jemisin, calling her an “ignorant half-savage” and saying that “self-defense laws have been put in place to let whites defend their lives and their property from people, like her, who are half-savages engaged in attacking them.”
His comments are ... appalling. Just appalling.

That's not to say that Jemisin didn't make a sweeping generalization or two. Day's asinine "self-defense" rant was aimed at a comment that Jemisin made that self-defense laws were in essence written by whites to justify shooting people of color just because. She also made a crack about the early days of SFF conventions saying that women did all the behind-the-scenes work while the men ran around pinching the women's butts.

I don't think it helps any argument when you basically reverse the prejudices and end up sounding as bigoted as the views you're trying to argue against.

This is a hard post to respond to...there was so much that would just end up belonging in the "politics and religion" thread.

I just wish when topics like this come up that both sides could speak without slinging all the mud and hyperbole...I just don't think it's effective for convincing anyone. You just end up "preaching to the choir"...
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:59 AM   #159
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His comments are ... appalling. Just appalling.

That's not to say that Jemisin didn't make a sweeping generalization or two. Day's asinine "self-defense" rant was aimed at a comment that Jemisin made that self-defense laws were in essence written by whites to justify shooting people of color just because. She also made a crack about the early days of SFF conventions saying that women did all the behind-the-scenes work while the men ran around pinching the women's butts.
Indeed, I'd encourage the SFWA to expel Beale and Jemisin alike. Whether racist and gender biased comments are made to discredit a minority or a majority shouldn't matter. If one member gets expelled, then the other as well. It probably would make the SFWA a slightly better organization.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:23 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by jgaiser View Post
I suspect you all are pretty tired with this whole episode, but a recent incident involving Theodore Beale aka Vox Day is now making the rounds.

N. K. Jemisin was Guest of Honor at Continuum in Australia where she noted, without naming names, the recent candidacy of a certain writer for President of SFWA.

Vox Day wasn't pleased. He used the SFWA Authors twitter feed to post a rant against Jemisin, calling her an “ignorant half-savage” and saying that “self-defense laws have been put in place to let whites defend their lives and their property from people, like her, who are half-savages engaged in attacking them.”

Blogger Amal El-Mohtar is asking SFWA members to write to the board to expel Theodore Bealle from SFWA.

http://amalelmohtar.com/2013/06/13/c...ale-from-sfwa/
I'm confused. Is Vox Day the same person as Theordore Bealle?

(I'm not confused about the point of your post, just the names.)
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:31 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks View Post
I'm confused. Is Vox Day the same person as Theordore Bealle?

(I'm not confused about the point of your post, just the names.)

Yes, "aka" means "also known as."
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:50 AM   #162
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Oh. I ignored the first line...sorry.
My bad.
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:27 AM   #163
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Oh - don't give me an excuse to read more of Vox Day's posts.
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