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Old 06-01-2013, 11:44 PM   #16
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That is true. But unlike iPad and Android, RT gives you a lot of native PC capabilities like Office, file management, peripheral support, plus a great keyboard/kickstand combo and a browser that can handle pretty much any website the same as a PC would.

It's not perfect by any means, but it's a solid device far more capable than any other tablet. Well, in theory anyway, the app store is improving but still a major limitation. Between Office and the web my productivity needs are met, however the "fun app" selection stinks, this from somebody who doesn't hardly play games.
Don't get me wrong: I absolutely love my Surface RT and definitely will keep it.
But I can understand, when consumers hesitate whether to go for the "exotic" or the "real" Windows.
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Old 06-02-2013, 03:09 AM   #17
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On the other hand, you can go to any geek forum on the net and you'll find rabid haters of all things Microsoft. It patently affects the products and their reception amongst buyers. A lot of that hatred is directed right at Gates. {shrug}. I personally don't get either--the rabid fanboi love for Jobs or the hatred for Gates--but the effect on the product perception is obvious.

Hitch
Steve came down from the mountain holding two perfectly flat slates.
He turneth them on, lo and behold, text appeared and Steve read to his minions.

I am Steve your LORD who bought you out of the land of Redmond.

Thou shalt not have other Apples before me.

Thou shalt not make a windowed image nor download and bow to the heathen protector and guardian of the Gates.

Remember the Sabbath day, it is set aside for Worlds of Warcraft and iTunes maintenance.

Honor thy father and mother for they knoweth nothing of these slates.

Thou shalt never recycle thy iPad.

Thou shalt never commit adultery, especially with the Google and the Window.

Thou shalt not pirate software.

Thou shalt not bear false witness to thy fellow Apple owner.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's iPad.

Or his iPod, iMac, iPhone nor IMac Mini

In other words, in the secular world we now inhabit we need something else to worship and believe in. Technology, in a world of scientific truth, is the natural heir. Change Steve for Bill and nothing, except for some nouns, really changes.
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Old 06-02-2013, 09:59 AM   #18
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Here is another little oddity I just discovered. I tried using a Wacom stylus (from Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1) on my Envy x2, this seems to cut of communication between both track pad and BT mouse, I lost the cursor, but not the clicks. Only way to regain it was a reboot. Is there a similar problem on a Surface PRO or Ativ since they also have digitizers?
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Old 06-02-2013, 10:09 AM   #19
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Here is another little oddity I just discovered. I tried using a Wacom stylus (from Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1) on my Envy x2, this seems to cut of communication between both track pad and BT mouse, I lost the cursor, but not the clicks. Only way to regain it was a reboot. Is there a similar problem on a Surface PRO or Ativ since they also have digitizers?
No. I don't have that problem. Neither on Surface Pro, nor on Dell Latitude 10.
Surface Pro comes with a stylus, for Latitude 10 I had ordered it as an add-on, original Dell and explicitly for the Latitude 10. Both use WACOM technology and I can switch both without any problems.
But I don't use bluetooth devices very often, so maybe in constant use I would see the same.
I'll check it out later this evening in more detail. But I'd be extremely surprised. In theory, in my understanding, WACOM and bluetooth should have nothing in common and shouldn't interfere.

BTW: Do you have the original Apple Magic Trackpad? Are you using http://www.trackpadmagic.com or do you have any other recommendation?
Or are your problems actually with the internal trackpad on the original clip-on keyboard? The latter would be even stranger. I'd guess, this doesn't use bluetooth but a physical connection?!

Quickly googling didn't show any oddities with the Note stylus. But maybe it's not original WACOM? You can order the Dell and the Microsoft stylus for ca. € 25 separately and they definitely should work...

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Old 06-02-2013, 12:49 PM   #20
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I discovered that the Envy x2 use a digitizer by Almtek (I think) whereas most other devices use Wacom. It seems to me that this company has some interesting technology, but perhaps it wasn't as ready as HP believed when they decided to implement it. HP was supposed to release a stylus in January, but after that they have been mum on the subject. I could obviously be wrong, but it seems to me that when I point on the screen with a Wacom stylus (the Samsung model) the digitizer and stylus tries to establish a connection, in order to receive input from the stylus the system turns off input from mouse/track pad, but since the connection is never established, and hence, never turned off properly, the system doesn't receive a command to re-establish a connection with mouse input.
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:52 AM   #21
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Do you actually expect that?
Given Microsoft's enormously "deep pockets", I don't see the need.
BlackBerry, with their phantastic PlayBook, unfortunately had to go that way. Low sales figures of the tablet due to lack of apps and "not very deep pockets" at that time make for a logic explanation.
But would Microsoft do that? Why not just let the stocked Surface RTs trickle out instead of admitting failure?
If they go for a firesale, they basically admit defeat. Not just of some hardware, but of Windows RT as a whole. They might try to separate Windows RT from Windows 8. But I think, to the consumer the discussions about "decline of the PC market is all Microsoft's fault with Windows 8" would be nourished further.
Personally, I expect Microsoft not putting much effort into Windows RT in the near future anymore. But never openly admitting failure either...
Yes, I actually do expect that. And there is historical precedence for it too.

I'm not talking about a firesale clearance of epic proportions (like the Blackberry Playbook). Just as they did with the Zune and Kin devices, there are numerous outlets that Microsoft will use.

Microsoft uses a "step-down" approach to reduce inventory. The first step is to bundle the device with an accessory. Microsoft just announced that with the Surface RT... buy a Surface RT and get a free touch case or type case cover.

Microsoft will gauge sales and compare it against existing inventory, and based on some predetermined metric, will decide whether or not additional steps are required to liquidate inventory.

I'm looking at a possible November timeframe for the Surface RT to appear on clearance sites like Woot, DailySteals, 1SaleADay, etc. Most likely it will first appear on a Woot-off.

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I never got the bashing against Microsoft.
Yes, they had been close to 100% market share.
Yes, puns such as "total word domination" had been funny and original.
But basically, everyone had do admit:
They understood their business and succeeded in dimensions, all corporates aim for and only few ever achieve.
That's a very rosy picture of reality. Bill Gates (just as Steve Jobs) was a shrewd and ruthless business man. Gates understood the future importance of personal computers and took advantage of the napping "big-iron mainframe" guys to get in. Once in, he shut the door to competition by forcing PC makers to sign exclusivity deals to preload Windows... all-or-nothing.

Microsoft gobbled up smaller companies that had innovative solutions. Oftentimes, buying them up, closing them down, and adding their patents to their massive portfolio.

Microsoft was arguably the first corporation to engage in "astro-turfing"... hiring people to go to online forum communities and say glowing things about Microsoft products while disparaging the competition. These people portrayed themselves to be "objective consumers" and NOT paid shills.

Microsoft engaged in FUD. Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Whenever a more nimble company released a new product that leapfrogged a Microsoft offering, Microsoft would respond with press releases and controlled demos of THEIR offering that was only "months away". This had the effect of stalling sales on the new competitive product until Microsoft delivered. But with the speed of the information cycle on the internet, this tactic became less useful. The last time I can recall Microsoft using it was when the iPad was first announced... while many people were poking fun at the name and ridiculing the usefulness of such a device, Microsoft leaked some concept videos of the Courier. That caused the Microsoft faithful to wait and see what would materialize. Of course nothing did.

There are legitimate reasons to dislike not only Microsoft, but Apple, Google, and any other company. These corporations aren't agents of morality, they're soul-less business entities whose sole purpose is profits. Unless I'm a shareholder, I see nothing admirable in these corporations.

But that's just me.

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Old 06-03-2013, 11:08 AM   #22
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:30 AM   #23
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I have no intention of hijacking the thread, but how do you like your Envy x2, Kumabjorn?

On paper it looks to address all my main requirements around a lightweight, long-lasting hybrid I can still do serious work on when I'm no the road. If I could get the 128GB drive I'd probably buy it in a heartbeat but seems that's only available in the U.S.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:04 PM   #24
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Herr Mueller.... Love your reviews and openness on all tablet/ereaders.... Have to admit the Windows RT looks good.but as you point out the weight of the Pro....does NOT make sense.... My 2010 Acer 11.6 notebook with i7 500gigs or memory...6 hours of battery life... Upgraded to win 8 weighs... 1.3kg... RT sure...but My Nexus 10 with bluetooth Keyboard...still lighter than then the Win tablet pro...
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Don't get me wrong: I absolutely love my Surface RT and definitely will keep it.
But I can understand, when consumers hesitate whether to go for the "exotic" or the "real" Windows.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:45 PM   #25
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Herr Mueller.... Love your reviews and openness on all tablet/ereaders.... Have to admit the Windows RT looks good.but as you point out the weight of the Pro....does NOT make sense.... My 2010 Acer 11.6 notebook with i7 500gigs or memory...6 hours of battery life... Upgraded to win 8 weighs... 1.3kg... RT sure...but My Nexus 10 with bluetooth Keyboard...still lighter than then the Win tablet pro...
Thanks a lot for your praise:
As always, I think it's all about one's personal usage patterns:
a.) Surface Pro as an ultrabook. Or, for that matter, any (Windows) tablet as an ultrabook. Surface Pro and the likes certainly are up to the task, the specs are more than adequate. But personally, I don't really see the use. If I'm mainly in ultrabook mode: Why buy a tablet then? MacBook Air or the respective Windows units are about as mobile and compact and usually have (slightly) better battery life and keyboard.
b.) Surface Pro and the likes as a tablet. I love it and wouldn't want to miss it. But frankly, I wouldn't use it as my sole tablet. For quite a few tasks, it's simply too bulky and heavy and simply oversized in its capabilities. For surfing, I can use a € 200 Kindle Fire HD or something like that and certainly don't need a € 1000 high-end machine.
c.) Surface Pro and the likes as hybrids. Having tablet and ultrabook with you in a single unit. Again, personally I don't see the use. I could take, as an example, iPad and MacBook Air or Kindle Fire HD 8.9 and a compact Windows notebook with me. It wouldn't take much more space, would have some kind of backup (2 units instead of 1) and better battery life.

So, what's the use of such machines then and why do I love them?
To me, it's about "the right tool for the right task". I find it difficult, to do it all with a single gadget. And as an early adopter, I wouldn't even want to.
When on vacation, I often have a separate suitcase with me for my gadgets and the power supplies and cables:
- Kindle Paperweight for reading in bed or on the beach.
- Microsoft Surface Pro or Dell Latitude 10, as I don't have a Windows notebook anymore and simply need Windows for some tasks.
- MacBook Air as my notebook of choice.
- The newest gadget, in a few days this will be Google Chromebook Pixel.
- And my momentary favorite. For now, this actually is Surface Pro. I've spent most of the last few weeks with Dell Latitude 10, but came to love the HD screen on Surface Pro, the build quality and the power of the processor.

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Old 06-06-2013, 12:54 PM   #26
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..My 2010 Acer 11.6 notebook with i7 500gigs or memory...6 hours of battery life... Upgraded to win 8 weighs... 1.3kg... RT sure...but My Nexus 10 with bluetooth Keyboard...still lighter than then the Win tablet pro...
I think, that's a bit harsh.
When holding Surface Pro in my hands, it really feels heavy and bulky.
I explicitly say "in my hands", as I rarely hold it in a single hand.

But still, if I compare specs:
Surface Pro = 907g.
Your Acer notebook = 1.3kg.
MacBook Air 11" = 1.08kg.

Same for the measurements.

Meaning:
If we would hold our notebooks in our hands like tablets, they would be even (way) bulkier and heavier than Surface Pro.
So Microsoft obviously did a great job re. weight and measurements, but there's simply a limit to it.
Question is, whether it's an acceptable compromise or not.
Each has to answer this on his own.
If I look at the passengers on the train, many probably don't have any need for Surface Pro. Their lighter and smaller iPads, Kindle Fire HDs and such do the job (most only do easy tasks on their tablets, like wathcing movies, surfing the web or answering emails).
But personally, I wouldn't want to miss Surface Pro anymore.
But as I said in the thread before: I'm always using numerous gagdets.
Would I go for s single unit, it would be really tough to decide...
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:08 PM   #27
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...There are legitimate reasons to dislike not only Microsoft, but Apple, Google, and any other company. These corporations aren't agents of morality, they're soul-less business entities whose sole purpose is profits. Unless I'm a shareholder, I see nothing admirable in these corporations...
Why would one dislike an anonymous entity?
Why would one have feelings towards companies anyway?
When I say, I admire them, I simply mean if ever I'd build up a company I'd hope for similar success.
I admire the 1% of companies that actually survive the first 3 years and not the ones going bankrupt...

"soul-less business entities whose sole purpose is profits"?
What other purpose than profits should a company have?
The common good? World peace?
That's all not their job. Their job is being successful in their respective niche.
Just an example: A famous German film critic 10 years ago bashed the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy as being trivial and stupid. He did praise a German movie about 2nd world war and the resistance against Nazi terror.
Yes, he's certainly right: The 2nd movie did have a noble goal. And it's was portraying an important story and era. But: This movie had been watched by 70.000 people in total, whereas "Lord of the Rings" made billions.
Would the 2nd movie have succeeded in its foremost target = being actually seen by movie goers, only then it could have succeeded in its other targets as well = being educational and wary of the past.

Meaning:
If a privately owned company, not a sponsored public organisation, doesn't succeed in making profits, they won't succeed in anything.

But I guess you've just been ironic anyway. :-)

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Old 07-15-2013, 01:12 AM   #28
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Microsoft has lowered the price from $499 to $349 for the Surface RT. Will that injection be enough?
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:00 AM   #29
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Microsoft has lowered the price from $499 to $349 for the Surface RT. Will that injection be enough?
How big is their appstore? Microsoft has this annoying habit of re-inventing its appstore every time they release a new device and then locking out forward compatibility for older devices.
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:33 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by tubemonkey View Post
How big is their appstore? Microsoft has this annoying habit of re-inventing its appstore every time they release a new device and then locking out forward compatibility for older devices.
It's growing but I'd be the first to say most of the apps available are kind of meh. They clearly have a hurdle to overcome. But if you count Office as a separate $100 purchase then it is only a $249 purchase. If I was starting college in a month it would probably be on my radar, something Microsoft surely considered when lowering their price.
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