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Old 05-16-2013, 01:09 PM   #31
fjtorres
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Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer View Post
This also demonstrates a really weak compliance culture at Apple...
Compliance culture?
Apple runs on a Collusion Culture.

Let's not forget the *other* recent federal lawsuit, the one they setted, and the ongoing class action suit from their *own employees* for colluding with half the SiliValley tech companies not to hire each other's employees in order to keep salaries down.

While everybody angsts over trade-dress patents, their real crimes against their own employees get quitely swept under the carpet because (most) "everybody else" in town doees it.
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:11 PM   #32
Ken Maltby
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Originally Posted by Fat Abe View Post
No one is saying that our government, or any government, is a model of consistency. But there have been times when the government acts in the best interest of its people, e.g., oulawing slavery, granting women the right to vote, and creating a national health insurance plan.
(snip)
There is evidence that the FBI has collected that merits a suit. This is not a vendetta by the administration that was started because Apple did not donate enough money to the party in power.
Except for the "national health insurance plan", the people made the changes
happen, The Abolition Movement and Civil War, the international Womens
Suffrage Movement. The unaffordable "national health insurance plan" is
an example of a Government plan that few wanted and is hardly proving to
be "in the best interest of its people".

As for the last; Is there something about the current administration that
might cause you to consider that argument?

Luck;
Ken
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:51 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
Compliance culture and training? Steve was CEO, he knew. Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi, that's what this e-mail demonstrates, IMHO.
"Jove" is much missed over at Cupertino."

His lightning bolts were also a good show. Indeed "MAGIC!"
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
The Digital Reader pulls a fascinating graph from the DOJ's proposed findings of fact, showing that average ebook prices for the Agency publishes increased by about 20% over the week that agency pricing was introduced.

Yes, that's exactly what agency pricing was intended to accomplish: stop Amazon from selling books at a loss in an attempt to drive the rest of the ebook sellers out of the market.

However, it sure looks like Apple pushed the Agencies too hard with their "most favored nation" clause.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:01 PM   #35
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Compliance culture and training? Steve was CEO, he knew. Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi, that's what this e-mail demonstrates, IMHO.
A compliance culture is more than just whether or not the CEO knows something is wrong in a particular instance, it's about whether everyone in a management position both knows and respects laws that the corporation needs to comply with.

In any event, my comment wasn't a defense of Apple or Steve Jobs, because really it's irrelevant whether or not he knew what he was doing was illegal. Although if he didn't, then Apple's in-house lawyers failed at their jobs; saying that Apple's lawyers failed does not mean I"m absolving Steve Jobs of anything.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:15 PM   #36
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Even if "Stop Amazon" was universally accepted as something that absolutely NEEDED to happen; if it was imperative for the very survival of the industry; everybody was on board--no exceptions: it still wouldn't be a valid defense for the charges being brought. Even without any coercion to comply with the attempted coup, "Stop Amazon" wouldn't be any sort of magic, mitigating justification for illegal activity. It should not be construed as such by anyone wanting to be taken seriously. No matter how much you might wish Amazon could be "stopped."

Last edited by DiapDealer; 05-16-2013 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:20 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer View Post
A compliance culture is more than just whether or not the CEO knows something is wrong in a particular instance, it's about whether everyone in a management position both knows and respects laws that the corporation needs to comply with.

In any event, my comment wasn't a defense of Apple or Steve Jobs, because really it's irrelevant whether or not he knew what he was doing was illegal. Although if he didn't, then Apple's in-house lawyers failed at their jobs; saying that Apple's lawyers failed does not mean I"m absolving Steve Jobs of anything.
My apologies, what I was trying to say did not come clear.

The e-mail is obviously written by Steve Jobs, he had a special position in Apple, and what he did does not necessarily demonstrate what is happening with rank and file Apple employees (here, management). For all I know, a majority of Apple employees might be equally scandalized by the content of e-mail. Or not. I can not say.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:23 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by curtw View Post
Yes, that's exactly what agency pricing was intended to accomplish: stop Amazon from selling books at a loss in an attempt to drive the rest of the ebook sellers out of the market.
They priced a handful of books below cost as loss leaders, but overall made a profit on eBooks. A standard method for retail sales. Not to mention that at the same time other retailers at the time were sometimes cheaper than Amazon.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:35 PM   #39
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Funny how when a private business raises $ it's a big scandal but if the Government gives the rich a tax break it's just business as usual. Not to make the thread political, but the Government should clean its own house before going after others.
There is no reason to not go for both simultaneously.

Any if you'll use an Apple device you will loose all your rights, anyway.

Last edited by joblack; 05-16-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:52 PM   #40
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Like many other hippie capitalists of his vintage, Jobs had to see himself as a rebel: as being in an adversarial position to the ladder he'd already ascended, to his competitors and to the market he wished to manipulate. It wasn't an accident that Apple Inc. began with phone phreaking any more than Jobs' fetish for black turtleneck sweaters (the pivot chord between hitman casual and Igor Stravinsky's beret) should have been a surprise.

One problem is that justifying a monopoly as the celebration of recalcitrant individuality invites caginess and exploitation. The person who embraces that idea is thinking like a double agent whether they see themselves as dishonest or not.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:00 PM   #41
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Like many other hippie capitalists of his vintage, Jobs had to see himself as a rebel: as being in an adversarial position to the ladder he'd already ascended, to his competitors and to the market he wished to manipulate. It wasn't an accident that Apple Inc. began with phone phreaking any more than Jobs' fetish for black turtleneck sweaters (the pivot chord between hitman casual and Igor Stravinsky's beret) should have been a surprise.

One problem is that justifying a monopoly as the celebration of recalcitrant individuality invites caginess and exploitation. The person who embraces that idea is thinking like a double agent whether they see themselves as dishonest or not.
I'm not exactly sure what you just said, but, man, I dig the way you said it.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:25 PM   #42
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Yes, that's exactly what agency pricing was intended to accomplish: stop Amazon from selling books at a loss in an attempt to drive the rest of the ebook sellers out of the market.
Except that when the feds looked at Amazon's books, they found they were *not* losing money selling ebooks.

Can we *finally* put that myth to rest?

Amazon had ebook sales that temporarily dropped prices on *some* ebooks. They made their money back on other *ebooks*, not on TVs or DVDs or other merchandise.
They made a *profit* pre-agency and they are making a way bigger profit now because Agency crippled indie ebookstores, killed most of the hardware-only ereader vendors, and helped mainstreamed indie publishing.

The only winners from agency were Apple and Amazon.
And Apple's "win" is being debated in court.

"Don't throw me into the briar patch!"

Edit:

1- The trial is about a conspiracy to raise prices via Agency, not about Agency or the prices. Just the act of conspiring to raise the prices triggers the law.

2- Claiming they were trying to prevent Amazon from dominating the industry is, as the Judge already ruled, a non sequitor. Intentions, good or bad, are no justification for breaking the law.

3- To add insult to injury, Apple's "excuses" neglect that Amazon has today at least the same market share they had before the conspiracy. The losers, besides consumers, were the smaller indie ebookstores that lost access to BPH titles for months on end right as ebook adoption was exploding. Apple's gains didn't come from Amazon, they came from Nook, from Fictionwise, from Books On Board, from Sony, from other ebookstors.

Last edited by fjtorres; 05-16-2013 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:09 PM   #43
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Funny how when a private business raises $ it's a big scandal but if the Government gives the rich a tax break it's just business as usual. Not to make the thread political, but the Government should clean its own house before going after others.
How does this NOT make the thread political? You followed an off-topic allusion with an unrelated comparison then chastised the target of the first two comments. This is about price fixing not taxes.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:10 PM   #44
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Just like saying "No copyright infringement intended....", saying "Not to make the thread political..." doesn't change the fact that you did.
I should have read the next ten posts before commenting
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:10 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Even if "Stop Amazon" was universally accepted as something that absolutely NEEDED to happen; if it was imperative for the very survival of the industry; everybody was on board--no exceptions: it still wouldn't be a valid defense for the charges being brought. Even without any coercion to comply with the attempted coup, "Stop Amazon" wouldn't be any sort of magic, mitigating justification for illegal activity. It should not be construed as such by anyone wanting to be taken seriously. No matter how much you might wish Amazon could be "stopped."
Bingo! also if Amazon was doing anything wrong the Justice dept. would have been after them instead of Apple and the BPH.
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