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Old 05-14-2013, 01:49 PM   #31
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What about zoom/pan speed? That's usually the issue with PDFs.
I don't get to use zoom and pan much because i study pdfs in landscape mode. They are equally fast though.
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Old 05-14-2013, 03:02 PM   #32
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What about zoom/pan speed? That's usually the issue with PDFs.
Exactly what I was talking about. Even worse would be adding annotations, notes, highlighting. Any interfacing that requires updating the screen will be snail pace slow and probably result in some ghosting. YUK!

And I'll reiterate the lower pitch of 150 dpi. That is at the very bottom of the readable scale IMO.
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:01 PM   #33
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Well, at 13.3 in, hopefully you don't need to zoom and pan.

But the 150dpi isn't good. That is half of decent print. It's ok for reflowable text but for graphs and figures and fine detail it's not going to be good. And the contrast will probably be pretty low too.

At least they need epub3 support. Or doc. Or anything in addition to PDF.

At least it's better than the giant double LCD kno (??) tablet.
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:17 PM   #34
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zoom and pan is nearly not needed on the M92 sized devices. i cant imagine the need on an A4 sized page. As far as speed of the interface adn writing etc. it will be faster than currently available on sony devices which i wouldnt call slow as is. note taking should be as quick as on a wacom enable lcd screen. ghosting is dealt with with newer algorithms as well.

as far as it reading only pdfs at the moment that is clearly noted as for the testing only. probably to ensure the note taking etc IS fluid. the rest can be added in after. good luck with office documents though. While the M92 can read them etc I dont envision native ability to create on this device. that would price it out of the market.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:20 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Dulin's Books View Post
zoom and pan is nearly not needed on the M92 sized devices. i cant imagine the need on an A4 sized page.
Perhaps I have better imagination () but a prime use of PDFs, especially on an academically oriented device like this, is textbooks and technical documents, often containing tables and charts with small, dense print. Even on 2000dpi-equivalent text book, people sometimes use magnifying glasses. One a 150dpi screen, zoom will be essential.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:31 PM   #36
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Perhaps I have better imagination () but a prime use of PDFs, especially on an academically oriented device like this, is textbooks and technical documents, often containing tables and charts with small, dense print. Even on 2000dpi-equivalent text book, people sometimes use magnifying glasses. One a 150dpi screen, zoom will be essential.
If its aiming for the textbook and technical document segment, as it is thought of, it would need, above all, to be EPUB 3 compatible from the get-go, if only for the MathML support. This would be more important than zooming, in my opinion.

Last edited by Joseph R; 05-14-2013 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:36 PM   #37
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granted APK. i thought of that as i was posting actually. even so with the newer processor, buffer and display algorithms it should be faster than the M92 etc. which isnt 'bad' really.

i wonder which is better, being able to zoom or having the producer of the pdf insert a page with a larger version of the chart/table that is hyperlinked too so you can jump to it by clicking on the smaller view...

edit- on the epub3 support and other format, as i said above i think they are just concentrating on the pdf support during this trial to ensure they have the capabilities needed, that they get it right. then they can add the other support they already offer.

Last edited by Dulin's Books; 05-14-2013 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:01 PM   #38
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I suspect you're right in that anything noticeably better then what is currently available will be good enough for version 1, and it will only get better with the v2, v3, vx....hardware.

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If its aiming for the textbook and technical document segment, as it is thought of, it would need, above all, to be EPUB 3 compatible from the get-go, if only for the MathML support. This would be more important than zooming, in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Dulin's Books View Post

i wonder which is better, being able to zoom or having the producer of the pdf insert a page with a larger version of the chart/table that is hyperlinked too so you can jump to it by clicking on the smaller view...
EPUB3 support, changing the way PDFs are built, that's like the hydrogen-powered car. Good idea but the infrastructure isn't there yet.
Most of these documents are currently on paper, and the layout used for paper often directly made into a PDF. That's what currently is being used, that's what must be supported now. But by all means, get the device ready to support epub3 and e-reader-optimized PDFs. They are more likely to build hydrogen filling stations if there are already hydrogen-capable cars around.....

Last edited by ApK; 05-14-2013 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:18 PM   #39
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it's very obviously a step in the right direction. I'm not talking about the size, I'm talking about using a goddam reader/tablet just as naturally as a notebook: to read and to write (and ocasionally draw), with a pen, not with your greasy finger. get away those lame keyboards from e-ink readers.
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:01 AM   #40
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You can find some additional information about the new Mobius technology at the Eink webpage now.

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May 13, 2013 – Cambridge, MA -- E Ink® Holdings, "E Ink" (8069.TW), a digital signage and display visionary, today announced the upcoming release of E Ink Mobius, a new flexible electronic paper display (EPD) technology. E Ink Mobius will be the first flexible display technology that will go into mass production for a large format digital paper product based on flexible Thin Film Transistor (TFT) technology developed by Sony.

Mobius uses a TFT technology that will enable the development of much lighter and rugged products. Mobius displays can weigh less than 50% of the weight of an equivalent glass based TFT. This is particularly important for mobile products requiring larger display areas. A 13.3" display weighs approximately 60 grams.

The ruggedness and lightweight characteristics of Mobius are due to the TFT being constructed on a plastic substrate rather than traditional glass. The technology was developed by Sony specifically for use with EPDs in cooperation with E Ink. Sony has now transferred the technology to E Ink for mass production. E Ink will start mass production of the world's first 13.3 flexible EPD display in 2013.

"We have been working with Sony for over 10 years, and we are extremely happy to bring this technology to mass production," said Giovanni Mancini, director of product management for E Ink Holdings. "Development of this new digital paper product by Sony confirms our belief that the ePaper market is still strong."

Learn more about E Ink's Mobius display technology and Sony's digital paper product, which is the first prototype to use Mobius, by visiting the Sony booth during the 4th Educational IT Solutions Expo (EDIX) from May 15-17, 2013 in Tokyo, Japan; or by visiting the E Ink booth at the upcoming Society for Information Display (SID)'s Display Week 2013 International Symposium and Exhibition from May 21-23 in Vancouver, Canada.
Read the full press release.
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Old 05-15-2013, 01:54 PM   #41
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I'm glad that Sony seems to be back at full throttle
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Old 05-15-2013, 03:33 PM   #42
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The spirit of the Kno lives!? SFinally a device on par with A4. However as most everyone here should recall past attempts serving up a device for academics perhaps the biggest reason for failure has been poor research/study management software. That is still where success or failure lurks.

Problem is the software needs to not only paradigm shift from paper but also serve every learning style/type out there. Closest software to that end, that I've used anyway, has been MS OneNote. Even then it has a ton of holes with a long way to go. Evernote also held promise but never made the commitment to serve academics either.

I've actually been hopeful Pocketbook would make it happen with their focusing schools but that hasn't gone well either.

With Sony's "our way or the highway" corporate philosophy my confidence from me is low that this specific device will break the barrier. It just seems counter to what Sony has done historically. Hopefully I'm not reading the tea leaves right this time.
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Old 05-15-2013, 03:42 PM   #43
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if sony ever does release this commercially, i'm wondering if plastic logic would kick themselves in the ass for not releasing the que.
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Old 05-15-2013, 04:28 PM   #44
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But the 150dpi isn't good. That is half of decent print. It's ok for reflowable text but for graphs and figures and fine detail it's not going to be good.
The 9.7" 150dpi Kindle DX is a big win over 6" 167dpi readers for figures and graphs and even has an edge over 200dpi 6" readers. This new Sony should have have the same magnitude advantage over the current 9" to 10" readers. Higher dpi would be better still, but I would prefer not to have to wait for it.

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And the contrast will probably be pretty low too.
Why do you say that? I think the contrast is slightly better with slightly bigger pixels.

For an extreme example, consider the deep black segmented calculator LCDs from the seventies versus the dim gray dot matrixed calculator LCDs from the eighties.

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At least they need epub3 support. Or doc. Or anything in addition to PDF.
As others have written, that can come later. Anyone willing to cough up what this is going to cost is desperate for something decent for the set of PDFs they want to read and already has one or more current readers that do fine with reflowable formats and are easier to hold, use, and carry around.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:17 AM   #45
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I'm intrigued by this, but I'd almost be willing to bet cash today that Amazon comes along and trumps it with a Liquavista color display that ties into their huge library of e-textbooks for an educational product. I think buying Liquavista gives them a vertical proprietary supply chain that seems aimed at that market when you take their e texts into account.
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