Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > News

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-22-2014, 10:10 AM   #1
Soldim
Not so important
Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Soldim's Avatar
 
Posts: 722
Karma: 6629349
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Zurich
Device: Sony PRS-505, Kindle 4, iPad, Kobo Glo 4
Dutch judge allows sale of used ebooks

An attempt by two organizations defending publishers interests to forbid the resale of ebooks by a specific website has been dismissed by a Dutch judge yesterday (link, in Dutch).

The just uses the precedents from the UsedSoft case to argue that the resale of ebooks can at this point not be prohibited.
Soldim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 10:20 AM   #2
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 63,128
Karma: 41205449
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Onyx T68, N7,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldim View Post
An attempt by two organizations defending publishers interests to forbid the resale of ebooks by a specific website has been dismissed by a Dutch judge yesterday (link, in Dutch).

The just uses the precedents from the UsedSoft case to argue that the resale of ebooks can at this point not be prohibited.
I see a number of potentially serious issues with this:

1. A used ebook market would destroy the "new" market, because there's no degradation of digital products, unlike physical ones. Many people would prefer to buy new paperbooks to used; there would be no reason to prefer a new ebook to a used one: the two would be indistinguishable.

2. How could it be ensured that the seller had deleted the book? What would be to stop someone buying an ebook, selling it, but keeping a copy for themselves?

3. DRM. DRM is not transferable. There's no mechanism for transferring either an ePub or a Kindle book from one owner to another.

Last edited by HarryT; 07-22-2014 at 10:23 AM.
HarryT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 10:57 AM   #3
Nate the great
Sir Penguin of Edinburgh
Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Nate the great's Avatar
 
Posts: 10,389
Karma: 3161371
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: DC Metro area
Device: Shake a stick plus 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
I see a number of potentially serious issues with this:

1. A used ebook market would destroy the "new" market, because there's no degradation of digital products, unlike physical ones. Many people would prefer to buy new paperbooks to used; there would be no reason to prefer a new ebook to a used one: the two would be indistinguishable.

2. How could it be ensured that the seller had deleted the book? What would be to stop someone buying an ebook, selling it, but keeping a copy for themselves?

3. DRM. DRM is not transferable. There's no mechanism for transferring either an ePub or a Kindle book from one owner to another.
Let me take your points in reverse order.

3. No. The only thing keeping you from reselling a DRMed Kindle ebook is the lack of a transfer mechanism. There is no technical reason why Amazon couldn't build it if they wanted. Also, ebooks that use digital watermark DRM can be readily resold.

FYI: The site only lets you resell DRM-free Epubs or Epubs with digital watermarks. I've been writing about it since it launched:
2. Yes, that is a problem. I think this could be the point which sinks Tom Kabinet.

1. This is true but I don't see how it is necessarily bad that digital content doesn't decay. I see that as a benefit, and the effect it has on existing business models is not unexpected.
Nate the great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 11:00 AM   #4
Soldim
Not so important
Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Soldim ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Soldim's Avatar
 
Posts: 722
Karma: 6629349
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Zurich
Device: Sony PRS-505, Kindle 4, iPad, Kobo Glo 4
I read through the court statement, but am things might be open for different interpretations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
I see a number of potentially serious issues with this:

1. A used ebook market would destroy the "new" market, because there's no degradation of digital products, unlike physical ones. Many people would prefer to buy new paperbooks to used; there would be no reason to prefer a new ebook to a used one: the two would be indistinguishable.

The judge seems to refer to the UsedSoft case in this context, ownership of a property (real or digital) or licence cannot be limited by a contract and can thus be resold. The claimants used the 'degradation of physical media' argument but that seems to be dismissed as irrelevant in the legal context.

In my opinion, the is a difference in availability of the new vs used ebooks. A publisher could sell an infinite number of an ebook -- in the used market here can never be more books for sale than the publisher has sold.

Quote:
2. How could it be ensured that the seller had deleted the book? What would be to stop someone buying an ebook, selling it, but keeping a copy for themselves?
The reselling site asks the original owner of the ebook to promise to delete the ebook. According to the court statement that sufficient to fulfill their legal obligation.

Quote:
3. DRM. DRM is not transferable. There's no mechanism for transferring either an ePub or a Kindle book from one owner to another.
To my surprise, DRM was not mentioned by the claimants at any point during the case. According to someone I talked with, stripping DRM is allowed in the Netherlands and this judgement would allow the resale of an ebook also after the DRM has been stripped by the original purchaser.
Soldim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 12:03 PM   #5
Mike L
Wizard
Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Mike L ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Mike L's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,388
Karma: 3806825
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Device: Kindle 3, Nexus 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
I don't see how it is necessarily bad that digital content doesn't decay. I see that as a benefit, and the effect it has on existing business models is not unexpected.
It is certainly a benefit to both the seller and the buyer. The problem is that it would seriously degrade the overall e-book market. There would be no incentive for people to buy new e-books if they can buy them second-hand (at a presumably lower price). So authors and publishers would suffer, and that might discourage them from producing e-books in marginal cases. In the long run, that would be bad for us all.

I'm not saying that the judgement is necessarily wrong, only that it is a mistake to consider the benefit without looking at the possible consequences.

Mike
Mike L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 12:14 PM   #6
HomeInMyShoes
Ginormous Intergalactic
HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HomeInMyShoes's Avatar
 
Posts: 13,908
Karma: 43931069
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: junkyard
Device: Kindle3
The issue in Canada is that you are buying a license to read on your device and not actually buying the book. Reselling that license is a different argument than reselling a physical paper book. In this case the site is only allowing DRM-free ones, but I'm not sure how that relates to if it is a license you are buying or not.

I'm not sure about the stripping of DRM point made above. I would be curious if the law is stating that it is allowing the stripping of DRM for sharing amongst an 'owner's' devices or if it is allowing more than that.
HomeInMyShoes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 01:12 PM   #7
geertm
Guru
geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.geertm ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 805
Karma: 1204798
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Device: Nook, Nook Touch and Nook Color
Stripping of DRM is not allowed in the Netherlands (as far as I know).
You can only sell ePub books with a watermark, not Adobe DRM (or Kindle/Apple) books.

Ebooks in the Netherlands are only sold by Centraal Boekenhuis. They have made a big effort to promote the use of a watermark instead of Adobe DRM (making it cheap for publishers to convert their books to watermark).
Because of this the majority of Dutch ebooks these days are sold with a watermark instead of Adobe DRM (in January 2013 74%).
geertm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 01:18 PM   #8
crossi
Fanatic
crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crossi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 597
Karma: 2526212
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle Wahington U.S.
Device: kindle
The only books I would be willing to give up are those so bad I wouldn't want to reread them and if they are so bad it might well be that not many people would buy them once word gets around. An incentive to write books good enough that people want to keep them. Also those who buy direct from Amazon would have some perks that a used buyer might not have like synchronization, free downloading to your device, X-Ray. Lots of perks could be built in to encourage people to buy from venders instead of used. It could work like lending does already, except you wouldn't get the book back. I probably wouldn't use it much but it could be made to work.
crossi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 01:25 PM   #9
speakingtohe
Wizard
speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,596
Karma: 25170848
Join Date: Apr 2010
Device: sony PRS-T1 and T3, Kobo Mini and Aura HD, Tablet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
Let me take your points in reverse order.

3. No. The only thing keeping you from reselling a DRMed Kindle ebook is the lack of a transfer mechanism. There is no technical reason why Amazon couldn't build it if they wanted. Also, ebooks that use digital watermark DRM can be readily resold.

FYI: The site only lets you resell DRM-free Epubs or Epubs with digital watermarks. I've been writing about it since it launched:
2. Yes, that is a problem. I think this could be the point which sinks Tom Kabinet.

1. This is true but I don't see how it is necessarily bad that digital content doesn't decay. I see that as a benefit, and the effect it has on existing business models is not unexpected.
good articles
speakingtohe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 01:41 PM   #10
Katsunami
Wizard
Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Katsunami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Katsunami's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,340
Karma: 15006833
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Device: Kindle Paperwhite
The site should be closed down because of its weird name alone

Tom Kabinet almost has to be derived from "Uncle Tom's Cabin." And a Cabin is not the same as a Kabinet. The first is a building, the second is a storage compartment
Katsunami is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 01:41 PM   #11
latepaul
Fanatic
latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.latepaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
latepaul's Avatar
 
Posts: 522
Karma: 2761546
Join Date: Dec 2011
Device: Kobo Touch, Kindle Touch, Kobo Mini, Kobo Aura HD, Nexus 7, Kindle PW2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L View Post
It is certainly a benefit to both the seller and the buyer. The problem is that it would seriously degrade the overall e-book market. There would be no incentive for people to buy new e-books if they can buy them second-hand (at a presumably lower price). So authors and publishers would suffer, and that might discourage them from producing e-books in marginal cases. In the long run, that would be bad for us all.

I'm not saying that the judgement is necessarily wrong, only that it is a mistake to consider the benefit without looking at the possible consequences.
It could work the other way. If re-selling ebooks were legal it could mean that prices for used copies kept parity with the new ones. I can imagine publishers and/or retailers could have some fun with limiting copies and playing with the price point.

Imagine for example you have a new release by someone you hope is the next big thing. So you hype an "event" release of say 1,000 inidividually water-marked copies at a premium price (say up to 200% of normal). You then watch carefully the second-hand market. If the prices rise it means the books are sought after and a success, if they stay the same or drop then probably not. Crucially it also gives you a nice indicator of how to price the book.

Of course it would rely on pirated copies not affecting the market for genuine copies - but that's no different to the current case.

Not that I think this will happen but it's fun to speculate.
latepaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 02:04 PM   #12
arjaybe
Addict
arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.arjaybe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
arjaybe's Avatar
 
Posts: 239
Karma: 1078344
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Canada
Device: none
If used ebooks kill the market for originals, then where do the used books come from? Seems like a self-limiting problem to me.
arjaybe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 02:40 PM   #13
jswinden
Astrophotographer
jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.jswinden ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
jswinden's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,224
Karma: 5642618
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: USA
Device: iPad Mini 2, iPhone 5, Nexus 7.2
Another issue with selling used eBooks is how to verify they have not been tampered with, as in having the text edited without authorization from the author and/or publisher. Someone could certainly tamper with printed books too, but it would be more difficult and probably much easier to detect. I doubt anything digital will ever be 100% tamper proof.
jswinden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 02:46 PM   #14
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 63,128
Karma: 41205449
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Onyx T68, N7,
Quote:
Originally Posted by jswinden View Post
Another issue with selling used eBooks is how to verify they have not been tampered with, as in having the text edited without authorization from the author and/or publisher.
Oh for heaven's sake, don't start THAT again, please. Haven't we thrashed that particular horse to death many times over in the last few weeks?
HarryT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 02:47 PM   #15
Terisa de morgan
Wizard
Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Terisa de morgan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Terisa de morgan's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,198
Karma: 1958712
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Madrid, Spain
Device: Kobo Mini, iPhone, iPad, Kobo Aura, Galaxy Tab3 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by jswinden View Post
Another issue with selling used eBooks is how to verify they have not been tampered with, as in having the text edited without authorization from the author and/or publisher. Someone could certainly tamper with printed books too, but it would be more difficult and probably much easier to detect. I doubt anything digital will ever be 100% tamper proof.
We have a Spanish word for people like you: "cansino"
Terisa de morgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dutch ebooks? mike_bike_kite Amazon Kindle 7 09-05-2012 09:43 AM
SALE: Judge Dee Mysteries by Robert van Gulik/U. of Chicago Press mitford13 Deals, Freebies, and Resources (No Self-Promotion) 7 08-27-2012 09:12 AM
Dutch ebooks - Nederlandse ebooks AnneT General Discussions 1 01-31-2012 02:58 PM
Discounted Dutch Ebooks Filip75 Deals, Freebies, and Resources (No Self-Promotion) 0 12-07-2009 01:40 PM
Sell iRex iLiad v2 for sale (Dutch only) mvoosten Flea Market 0 10-14-2008 09:05 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:58 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.