Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > News

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-10-2013, 03:55 PM   #31
speakingtohe
Wizard
speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,569
Karma: 24987036
Join Date: Apr 2010
Device: sony PRS-T1 and T3, Kobo Mini and Aura HD, Tablet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle91 View Post
That was my point...publishers spend tons of money on this whole DRM scheme, which is only marginally successful (pirates don't care that they are breaking the law). If it becomes legal then DRM removal will be super easy (bundled with normal software and accomplished with a click) and free (the tools are already free). There won't even be the concept of legality to keep honest people honest (as far as removing the DRM is concerned).

Publishers wouldn't spend all that money when there is no gain...they will no longer pay for it...thus the end of DRM.
What was your point. Publishers spend about 2% for DRM or less (22cents a copy I think) If for every 22 cents they feel they can sell another book it is pretty cheap.

And what concrete legal benefit is there in terms of the consumer. They still can't legally sell or lend their books.

Helen
speakingtohe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 04:23 PM   #32
ApK
What did you call me?
ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,052
Karma: 33514047
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by speakingtohe View Post
And what concrete legal benefit is there in terms of the consumer. They still can't legally sell or lend their books.
They could legally move their content to a different reader if they need to switch to an incompatible type for any reason, or they could legally continue to access their content if the DRM system should go belly up, and they could legally use their content for various as-yet-unknown experimental and developmental uses that may improve society and advance the state of the art.
ApK is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Enthusiast
Old 05-10-2013, 04:34 PM   #33
BeccaPrice
Wizard
BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BeccaPrice ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
BeccaPrice's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,130
Karma: 11174187
Join Date: Jan 2011
Device: Sony 350, K3-3G, K4SO, KPW
I imagine that there will be more of a push for making de-drming legal if Microsoft buys the Nook and obsoletes the B&N-specific drm. that would leave an awful lot of people very unhappy to lose their books, even if it takes a couple of years for their B&N-specific units to fail.
BeccaPrice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 04:36 PM   #34
ApK
What did you call me?
ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ApK ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,052
Karma: 33514047
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Device: Kindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeccaPrice View Post
I imagine that there will be more of a push for making de-drming legal if Microsoft buys the Nook and obsoletes the B&N-specific drm. that would leave an awful lot of people very unhappy to lose their books, even if it takes a couple of years for their B&N-specific units to fail.
...and since, IIUC, MS is one of the vendors with an actual precedent of shutting down DRM systems and locking people out of their content, we can only hope they learned from experience....
ApK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 06:20 PM   #35
Elfwreck
Grand Sorcerer
Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Elfwreck ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Elfwreck's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,142
Karma: 24387852
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Device: Clié; PRS-505; EZR Pocket Pro, PRS-600, Kobo Mini
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck_in_Japan View Post
How many people are not de-drming their stuff simply because it's illegal? Nothing would change in my opinion.
There are plenty of people not de-drming their stuff because they don't know how, and they've heard it might be illegal so they don't look for the details, and get upset when their bookstore goes out of business or the publisher pulls some titles and they can't use the books they've bought anymore.

Making it legal to remove DRM for personal use would allow a "Remove DRM: Convert your ADE epub & load it to your Kindle" program to be openly sold. It'd allow "convert your kindle books for your nook!" programs.
Elfwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 07:19 PM   #36
cfrizz
Wizard
cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.cfrizz ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
cfrizz's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,060
Karma: 12906802
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Quincy, MA
Device: Sony PRS T1, Samsung Note 2, Samsung GMP 5, Nexus 7 32GB
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWinmill View Post
Besides, most people aren't going to obtain DRM cracking software unless they feel inconvenienced by DRM. A lot of people are happy with buying media through one vendor. Relatively few people are going to bump into the device restrictions in modern DRM models....
A whole LOT of people will be in for a rude awakening when B&N goes belly up!
cfrizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 07:24 PM   #37
Ralph Sir Edward
Gentleman & Cynic
Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Ralph Sir Edward's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,505
Karma: 13104900
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: 5 generation native Texan
Device: BeBook/Openinkpot, CYbook 3rd gen awaiting RTF software upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApK View Post
On a more philosophical level, it effects everyone in what it says about our system of justice and the rule of law.
Do we want to be a society where we pass and live under bad laws, flaunting them, ignoring them or enforcing them at capricious whim?
Or do we want to be one where we actively question and work to improve our laws, to the point that everyone knows that the ones left on the books are meaningful and should be respected?

Can I get an A-men, brothers and sisters?!?

ApK
Testify, Sister, Testify!!!!
Ralph Sir Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 10:54 PM   #38
Turtle91
Guru
Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Turtle91's Avatar
 
Posts: 669
Karma: 3807234
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Shannon, Ireland today
Device: iPhone 5/iPad 1&2/Surface Pro/Kindle PW
Quote:
Originally Posted by speakingtohe View Post
What was your point. Publishers spend about 2% for DRM or less (22cents a copy I think)
Ummm....2% is huge...

If your profit margin is 5% on a book and you suddenly realize you can increase your profit by 40% by not spending money on useless things like DRM...

Or looked at another way, using actual figures: The sales of ebooks in January 2012 was almost 100 Million (99.5) copies...22 cents times 100 million equals $22 million...in 1 Month!

You think that is pretty cheap??

Last edited by Turtle91; 05-10-2013 at 10:59 PM.
Turtle91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 11:12 PM   #39
speakingtohe
Wizard
speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.speakingtohe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,569
Karma: 24987036
Join Date: Apr 2010
Device: sony PRS-T1 and T3, Kobo Mini and Aura HD, Tablet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle91 View Post
Ummm....2% is huge...

If your profit margin is 5% on a book and you suddenly realize you can increase your profit by 40% by not spending money on useless things like DRM...

If we look at actual figures: The sales of ebooks in January 2012 was almost 100 Million (99.5)...22 cents times 100 million equals $22 million...in 1 Month!

You think that is pretty cheap??
It could be huge if the profit margin on an ebook is only 5%. I hae always assumed it was higher as many people think ebooks should be much cheaper than paper books,

And if they lose 10% sales by saving 22 cents a book and their profits on ebooks are really the 50% or higher that I have seen mentioned (I don't know how much they make but 5% seems low) then they stand to lose a lot more than the 22 million they are saving.

And remember that that 22 million is not for each publisher. There may be people in publising firms who earn the equivalent 22 cents a book their company sells.

Helen
speakingtohe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2013, 11:35 PM   #40
Turtle91
Guru
Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Turtle91's Avatar
 
Posts: 669
Karma: 3807234
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Shannon, Ireland today
Device: iPhone 5/iPad 1&2/Surface Pro/Kindle PW
The 5% was just an example, as I don't know exactly what the profit margin is...publishers are very mum on that point. That is why I also showed it as actual monetary numbers based on actual copies sold.

$22 Million no matter how many times it's sliced up is still $22 million...in 1 month...the INDUSTRY doesn't want to pay that much for something that is useless of it's intended purpose. As we see by TOR eliminating DRM - "there is no discernible difference" in the amount of piracy.

In the world of business spending 2% on something that doesn't do what it is supposed to is a huge deal....think of it this way...would you spend 2% of your paycheck on a home security service that puts bathroom door quality locks on your house, doesn't install sensors, doesn't put out any signs as a deterrent, doesn't monitor your home for break-ins, and if they DO get notification of a break-in will not call the police because it is too much hassle for such a small scale break-in???

Last edited by Turtle91; 05-10-2013 at 11:37 PM.
Turtle91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 01:48 AM   #41
Ninjalawyer
Guru
Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Ninjalawyer's Avatar
 
Posts: 775
Karma: 17550230
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Canada
Device: Kobo Touch, Nexus 7 (2013)
I don't understand why legalizing DRM removal would instantly mean the end of DRM. Publishers would still be free to impose it on the assumption that it makes casual infringement difficult for the average person that isn't savvy enough to remove it. The tools to remove DRM might be easier to come by, but I suspect DRM would be almost as useful as it ever was for a publisher.

This legislation would seem like it would be a win for consumers and a win for the legal system, with seemingly only minor downsides for publishers (on the assumption that DRM is useful at all of course).

Last edited by Ninjalawyer; 05-11-2013 at 09:37 AM.
Ninjalawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 05:12 AM   #42
crich70
Grand Sorcerer
crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
crich70's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,062
Karma: 20733991
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monroe Wisconsin
Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer View Post
I don't understand why legalizing DRM removal would instantly mean the end of DRM. Publishers would still be free to impose it on the assumption that it makes casual infringement difficult for the average person that isn't savvy enough to remove it. The tools to remove DRM might be easier to come by, but I suspect DRM would be almost as useful as it ever was for a publisher.

This legislation would seems like it would be a win for consumers and a win for the legal system, with seemingly only minor downsides for publishers (on the assumption that DRM is useful at all of course).
It reminds me of the fight the movie people put up when home VCR's came out in the late 70's. They wanted it made illegal to tape movies off of television. As I recall they failed in that aim. Hopefully the lawers for book publishers will fail to block the legalization of removing DRM from books as well.
crich70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 08:55 AM   #43
Ralph Sir Edward
Gentleman & Cynic
Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ralph Sir Edward ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Ralph Sir Edward's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,505
Karma: 13104900
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: 5 generation native Texan
Device: BeBook/Openinkpot, CYbook 3rd gen awaiting RTF software upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by crich70 View Post
It reminds me of the fight the movie people put up when home VCR's came out in the late 70's. They wanted it made illegal to tape movies off of television. As I recall they failed in that aim. Hopefully the lawers for book publishers will fail to block the legalization of removing DRM from books as well.
And it took a 5-4 SCOTUS ruling (the Betamax decision). The iPod didn't come out until after another SCOTUS ruling (The Macromedia decision) allowed it's legality.
Ralph Sir Edward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 09:45 AM   #44
Ninjalawyer
Guru
Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ninjalawyer ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Ninjalawyer's Avatar
 
Posts: 775
Karma: 17550230
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Canada
Device: Kobo Touch, Nexus 7 (2013)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward View Post
And it took a 5-4 SCOTUS ruling (the Betamax decision). The iPod didn't come out until after another SCOTUS ruling (The Macromedia decision) allowed it's legality.
As you and Crich point out, the content industry has a long (and sad) history of fighting tooth and nail against innovations that might actually help them make more profit.

The VCR is a great example -it turned out to be one of the most profitable technologies for the movie industry in its history. Removing the anti-circumvention provisions in the DMCA could similarly help the content industry, but they're too shortsighted to realize that.
Ninjalawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 10:45 AM   #45
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 62,564
Karma: 40125235
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Onyx T68, N7,
Quote:
Originally Posted by crich70 View Post
It reminds me of the fight the movie people put up when home VCR's came out in the late 70's. They wanted it made illegal to tape movies off of television. As I recall they failed in that aim. Hopefully the lawers for book publishers will fail to block the legalization of removing DRM from books as well.
Bear in mind, though, that taping a TV programme and permanently keeping that recording is still illegal. You're only legally allowed to record programmes for the purpose of "time shifting" - watching it at a time that suits you.
HarryT is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Proposed UK orphan works legislation avantman42 News 4 07-09-2012 11:38 AM
Need help in DRM removal. bagwell PDF 1 03-11-2011 09:24 AM
Appeals court case could legalize breaking DRM for ‘fair use’ Robotech_Master News 29 07-26-2010 11:50 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:03 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.