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Old 05-17-2013, 04:11 PM   #436
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Based on the font and size I use, it's actually 6 lines (3 tops and 3 bottom), just saying.
On the other hand we don't know for sure that a substantial mass of people out there having a Kobo reader are not disappointed by this issue. It's hard to say one way or the other. But if many of us here on this small group on MR consider this an issue, by the laws of statistics it seems hard to believe that nobody else out there would agree with it being an issue.

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Definitely. I doubt that many people get this passionate about 3 lines of text on a page!

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Old 05-17-2013, 04:50 PM   #437
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On the other hand we don't know for sure that a substantial mass of people out there having a Kobo reader are not disappointed by this issue. It's hard to say one way or the other. But if many of us here on this small group on MR consider this an issue, by the laws of statistics it seems hard to believe that nobody else out there would agree with it being an issue.
There is a definite sampling bias. Members of MR have a deeper interest in ereaders than the typical ereader user. That's why we're here. Now I realize that this is a generalization, I realize that some people are profoundly interested in how their ereader works yet have no interest in popping onto forums to discuss it. But I would also suggest that the vast majority of the people don't care how the device works, as long as it does work. Why waste your energy hating something if your interests are elsewhere after all?
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:42 PM   #438
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Based on the font and size I use, it's actually 6 lines (3 tops and 3 bottom), just saying.
On the other hand we don't know for sure that a substantial mass of people out there having a Kobo reader are not disappointed by this issue. It's hard to say one way or the other. But if many of us here on this small group on MR consider this an issue, by the laws of statistics it seems hard to believe that nobody else out there would agree with it being an issue.
The space on the bottom has been used for an information area since day 1 so you can't complain that you have lost that space. The area at the top now matches what people reading .kepubs have always seen -- I don't remember hearing any screams about that waste of space, do you?

I redo most of my ebooks to a line spacing of 1.1 and zero margins to get as much on the screen as I can. I tried the hack using a 2.5.1 file to remove the header with the title and reverted back to the stock firmware. I find the consistency of appearance from epub to kepub is a plus for me. An option to remove it for those who don't want it? An option to use the bottom menu area for text? If such an implementation doesn't cause other issues or consume too much time and resources, ask for it and it might be given.

As for the number of people here complaining? A quick count shows the number is not all that high and quite a few of those (Hi, JSWolf!) do not own a Kobo ereader.

Regards,
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:29 PM   #439
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Why do you try to downplay the issue ?
Just cause the bottom space has been an issue from day one does not make it less of an issue. The thing with the new issue of the top wasted space has brought the issue of the bottom space back into light, that's all.
My point is if by some miracle they fixed that top space issue by giving us the CHOICE of what we want (including even more blank spaces if that's what makes you happy, but as an option), that they might as well then deal with the bottom one, by allowing a full screen mode.
Why is that so hard to understand ? why is CHOICE such a problem for some ?
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The space on the bottom has been used for an information area since day 1 so you can't complain that you have lost that space. The area at the top now matches what people reading .kepubs have always seen -- I don't remember hearing any screams about that waste of space, do you?


What are you trying to say ? AGAIN that CHOICE should not be given, cause not enough people wanting it, not a real issue, bottom space never an issue to begin with etc ...
Forgive me if I'm mistaken but it really feels like a full screen AGAIN AS AN OPTIONAL CHOICE is a big problem for you.
And what does owning or not owning a Kobo reader have to do with anything. I do own one but even without one I still can see in reviews and other videos and photos that I don't like the wasted top/bottom space.
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As for the number of people here complaining? A quick count shows the number is not all that high and quite a few of those (Hi, JSWolf!) do not own a Kobo ereader.


And I am really happy you do, I would never dream of downplaying what you consider a plus for you and if Kobo ever removed it though I would say that full screen works for me, I would still disagree with them removing options that work for you.
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I find the consistency of appearance from epub to kepub is a plus for me.


In other words our issues are not worthy of the dev's time and work so yeah if they have some spare time and take pity on our irrelevant issues about a full screen option and if it does not get in the way of REAL issues then sure, why not.
Well thank you for that condescending note and blessing on our plight.
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An option to remove it for those who don't want it? An option to use the bottom menu area for text? If such an implementation doesn't cause other issues or consume too much time and resources, ask for it and it might be given.

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Old 05-17-2013, 07:31 PM   #440
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The space on the bottom has been used for an information area since day 1 so you can't complain that you have lost that space. The area at the top now matches what people reading .kepubs have always seen -- I don't remember hearing any screams about that waste of space, do you?
Actually those of us that hated the wasted space at the top of the Kepubs moved to only using epubs, hence no complaining. Now that our epubs look like kepubs which we didn't like in the first place you can betcha we are bitching. Now we don't have a choice.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:41 PM   #441
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Why do you try to downplay the issue ?
Just cause the bottom space has been an issue from day one does not make it less of an issue. The thing with the new issue of the top wasted space has brought the issue of the bottom space back into light, that's all.
My point is if by some miracle they fixed that top space issue by giving us the CHOICE of what we want (including even more blank spaces if that's what makes you happy, but as an option), that they might as well then deal with the bottom one, by allowing a full screen mode.
Why is that so hard to understand ? why is CHOICE such a problem for some ?
I am not downplaying the issue—I would have to consider the issue important in the first place to downplay it. What I get tired of is people posting that they are losing 3 lines at the top of the screen AND 3 lines at the bottom of the screen as if both happened at the same time. What has been lost in the new firmware is 3 lines at the top of the screen (3 if using a small font sizes, 2 lines for medium font sizes). Perhaps you can let me know which of the Kobo touch screen devices did not have the bottom reserved space — I must have missed that firmware release.

As for choice, Kobo is not in the business of creating personalized firmware. They are trying to create firmware that will keep the majority of their customers happy enough to keep buying ebooks from them. At least, they damn well should be.

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What are you trying to say ? AGAIN that CHOICE should not be given, cause not enough people wanting it, not a real issue, bottom space never an issue to begin with etc ...
Forgive me if I'm mistaken but it really feels like a full screen AGAIN AS AN OPTIONAL CHOICE is a big problem for you.
I have no problems if Kobo makes that an optional choice. OTOH, the sheer amount of verbiage spent by various people who seem to feel that Kobo has an unlimited amount of money to spend doing firmware modifications does make me wonder whether some people have any contact with reality. If the next version of the firmware when it is released makes the upper bar an option, I'll be happy. Until then, endless whinging does nothing but waste electrons.

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And what does owning or not owning a Kobo reader have to do with anything. I do own one but even without one I still can see in reviews and other videos and photos that I don't like the wasted top/bottom space.
Just as fourl29 annoyed quite a few people when he jumped into the Kobo forums to shill for Amazon when the Aura was released, the whinging from the collection of one trick ponies who go "I would never buy a Kobo because of that waste of space" who have never owned a Kobo device, a group who rather often make it obvious that they have no intention of ever owning one.

I will admit to some curiousity as to which review you saw the wasted top space in.

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And I am really happy you do, I would never dream of downplaying what you consider a plus for you and if Kobo ever removed it though I would say that full screen works for me, I would still disagree with them removing options that work for you.

In other words our issues are not worthy of the dev's time and work so yeah if they have some spare time and take pity on our irrelevant issues about a full screen option and if it does not get in the way of REAL issues then sure, why not.
Well thank you for that condescending note and blessing on our plight.
The title bar does not affect my use of my Kobo -- flipping an extra 2 to 3 pages per chapter is so much of a PITA — Oh, Great Ghu! How shall I survive! Other problems which seem to have slipped by without comment do affect my use. I would prefer to have covers automatically generated when I copy a sideloaded book to the uSD card. I can't connect to the corporate wireless network -- the main network uses a certificate to allow connecting, the guest network uses a hotspot style login which the experimental browser in my Kobo ereaders have never been happy with. The delay when disconnecting from a USB connection before the ereader decides it have been disconnected and can start processing is another annoyance.

Look at those 4 items

1. title bar
2. no covers for sideloaded books on a uSD card
3. WiFi connection issues
4. Slow reaction to USB being disconnected

Care to venture a guess as to which one is at the bottom of my wish list?

As for being condescending? That I don't agree with you that a full screen mode is an important option does not make me condescending.

As for your "plight"? What—please try to be exact—is the danger, difficulty or hazard in the presence of the title bar on the top of the screen?

Please note: the above comment is condescending.

Regards,
David
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:59 PM   #442
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Why do you try to downplay the issue? Just cause the bottom space has been an issue from day one does not make it less of an issue.
Ah, the joys of first world problems. And yes, I'm sure some of us are downplaying it because we don't see it as very important. Or maybe some people like having the title at the top of the screen. Keep in mind, one of the ideas behind desktop publishing is the use of whitespace Another idea is balance, and having whitespace at the top and not the bottom made the display a bit top-heavy. (And yes, I know your solution to that problem is to remove the whitespace at the bottom.) Another quirk with having text run from the top of the screen is that the menus that could remain visible while reading would cover the text. An observant person would notice that and dismiss the menu. A person who is more intent on their reading than the gadget's quirts wouldn't necessarily notice that. Consistency is another issue. We know that there are two rendering engines, but I don't think that we are supposed to know that. (Kobo clearly doesn't deny our knowledge of this, but it's not something that the typical reader should need to know about.

Quote:
What are you trying to say? AGAIN that CHOICE should not be given, cause not enough people wanting it, not a real issue, bottom space never an issue to begin with etc ...
I think there is a legitimate concern about Kobo giving options for every feature that a person (or a potentially small group of people) feel wed to, rather than this particular feature. Such an approach isn't necessarily well suited to a consumer electronics device. Consider how many features in devices like televisions are ignored, or are openly criticized in devices like mobile phones. Ultimately Kobo has to consider that, decide which consumers they're interested in, and implement the features and options accordingly. Some people will be happy, others will end up upset.

EDIT:

Another factor to consider is that Kobo occupies different positions in different markets. In the U.S., it is clearly trailing devices like the Kindle. In Canada, it is a dominant player. In the E.U., I don't have a clue. I am guessing that technical features are more appealing in markets where they are secondary players, simply because consumers have to do more research to simply discover the alternative. In markets where they are the dominant player, there is going to be a drive to satisfy a broader market (i.e. non-technical users) simply because they don't want to lose that customer base.

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Old 05-17-2013, 11:02 PM   #443
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I think there is a legitimate concern about Kobo giving options for every feature that a person (or a potentially small group of people) feel wed to, rather than this particular feature. Such an approach isn't necessarily well suited to a consumer electronics device. Consider how many features in devices like televisions are ignored, or are openly criticized in devices like mobile phones. Ultimately Kobo has to consider that, decide which consumers they're interested in, and implement the features and options accordingly.
This is a device that offers us font weight and sharpness settings out of the box. Kobo's unique point of difference is display choice. Why not actually give us that? In an Advanced menu is fine - people who feel overwhelmed by such things can merrily ignore it with no side effects.
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Old 05-18-2013, 01:07 AM   #444
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Changing a preference setting in an update is just a poor business decision. I would be angry if I took my car in for an oil change and they changed my radio station settings. If they changed my radio stations and didn't allow me to change it back I would be really pissed. Why is this so hard to understand?
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Old 05-18-2013, 03:19 AM   #445
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For all of you poor broken souls who have been gutted due to the reader title change, you might want to peek into the developer's corner...
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:36 AM   #446
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I guess you are right, you are definitely not condescending at all, my mistake
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The title bar does not affect my use of my Kobo -- flipping an extra 2 to 3 pages per chapter is so much of a PITA — Oh, Great Ghu! How shall I survive!

So you only downplay stuff you consider important, our issue is not even worthy of your contempt ? you are SOOO not condescending, I was so blind to think so
"as if both happened at the same time" Yeah, you are right, that is the main issue here. Since it did not happen at the same time, why the hell are people talking about it, the problem is irrelevant because it did not happen at the same time, of course, what was I thinking. Please let me check my Aura again for text ... checking ... OM MY GOD You are so right, the bottom wasted space is MAGICALLY not an issue anymore, now that I realize that it did not happen AT THE SAME TIME, thank you for opening my eyes on that.
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I am not downplaying the issue—I would have to consider the issue important in the first place to downplay it. What I get tired of is people posting that they are losing 3 lines at the top of the screen AND 3 lines at the bottom of the screen as if both happened at the same time.

With such an open minded, non condescending person, nope I have no idea which could possibly be at the bottom. If I could venture a guess, I'd say there is no bottom as you seem to value others' priorites as much as yours.
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1. title bar
2. no covers for sideloaded books on a uSD card
3. WiFi connection issues
4. Slow reaction to USB being disconnected

Care to venture a guess as to which one is at the bottom of my wish list?

I guess what you call condescending I would rather call irony.
If you don't mind, let me try some experimental condescending of my own:
No covers for sideloaded books ? Dude do you spend hours reading the cover or the book, seriously !
Wifi connection issues ? yeah we all do, but you don't see us whining about it
Slow reaction to USB being disconnected ? Who cares, as long as it eventually gets disconnected, stop wasting the dev's time with such nonsense!
Oh and did you check whether all these issues important to you HAPPENED AT THE SAME TIME, because if they did not, according to your holy Gospel, they may not be actual issues anymore ...

So what do you think ? not great condescending, but then again as I said, it was experimental and I lack practice. Also in this thread I try to focus on the issue that bothers me, not on belittling others' issues with the update and that is probably the main difference between you and me. Oh but wait, I forgot, you are not condescending, so again my mistake. Please never mind my lost and confused comments.
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As for your "plight"? What—please try to be exact—is the danger, difficulty or hazard in the presence of the title bar on the top of the screen?

I almost forgot about this line that seems to be genuine well meant curiosity. I embedded a video of the review a few posts back in this thread, look for it and you will find it, I'll give you a hint, it's post #316
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I will admit to some curiousity as to which review you saw the wasted top space in.

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Old 05-18-2013, 08:36 AM   #447
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I understand that Kobo focuses on to optimize
  • shop integration
  • improve personalized recommendations
  • other measures to
boost Kobos booksales further and which most users will understand. Kobo has to become or stay profitable to stay in business.
The general message in this thread is mainly "don't mess with the reading space (too much) and use this space (more) efficient."
The advice given may be called naive as it might suggest that developers or other involved Kobo personnel were not aware of "the problems/issues" or as it had not been part of the decision-making process.
The suggestions made by users, feasible or not are primarily expressed to motivate their complaint and not necessarily a "(you must) do this". It may feel that way, though.
We could also start a poll with just one question: "Do you like the new top header that Kobo introduced?" Answers to choose from: Yes, No, Doesn't bother me.
Regardless the poll outcome, it doesn't answer the question: Why?
Or, What can be done about it to improve it - keeping all corporate (financial budget) restraints in mind.

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Old 05-18-2013, 12:37 PM   #448
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For all of you poor broken souls who have been gutted due to the reader title change, you might want to peek into the developer's corner...
Thanks TechiSol for pointing this out. Works great. I did give the new update a go, actually found the smaller font for the title distracting, my eyes kept drifting to it because it felt out of place. Yes I get distracted easily by things like that I'm ADHD. And before Kobo goes ahead and just makes the font bigger, just add the option to display or NOT display the title, that is the answer. They did it with the page numbers on the right hand side of the screen, why not with the title.
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Old 05-18-2013, 02:47 PM   #449
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Much text deleted for brevity...

I almost forgot about this line that seems to be genuine well meant curiosity. I embedded a video of the review a few posts back in this thread, look for it and you will find it, I'll give you a hint, it's post #316
As for your comments about my choice of issues, the issues with WiFi and USB have been around for quite a while, the cover image not being generated for books sideloaded to the uSD card was introduced with 2.5.2 as was the title bar for epubs. Since I often have 5 or more books open on the home screen, I use the cover image to select which one to read next. A blank spot is not much help in that decision. To me, that makes it much more annoying than a title bar which just reminds me of dead tree books – perhaps a future firmware update will toggle between book title and author to make it even more familiar.

So, Dude, it is not a matter of staring at the cover on the sleep/power off screen, it's a matter of looking at the home screen. That is something I do much more often than gazing admiringly at the sleep/power off image.

I'd already seen that video -- what I was looking for was one showing an epub with the title bar. In the video posted, the bottom of the screen shows the pages within the chapter which says it is showing a kepub not an epub. Kepubs had the title of the books showing at the top of the screen long before the introduction of the Aura. Check reviews of the Touch and Glo for examples.

Part of what the reviewer said and I agree with is that kepub book do tend to use a wider line and paragraph spacing, wider than I prefer but, at most, 10 minutes with Sigil corrects that issue for epubs and non-DRMed kepubs. Part of this comes from the differences between the Adobe and ACCESS rendering engines – rename a epub to .kepub.epub and take a look at the difference in appearance.

Much of the difference between how a Kobo device display epubs and the way other epub devices display them seems to follow Kobo's apparent philosophy of allowing styles specified in the ebook to control the appearance of the ebook. Line heights set in the style basically disable the line spacing slider, margins can be made wider but not narrower and there is no control over the paragraph spacing.

I would have preferred the reviewer to have used the same font and font size on both devices so a comparison of the amount of text on the page would have been easier to do. I do realize that would require some familiarity with the devices which most reviewers do not have the opportunity to gain.

Regards,
David

Last edited by DNSB; 05-18-2013 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:19 PM   #450
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Sleep tight, marketing department. But when you wake take notice of your own writings: “Message from kobo: Kobo Care is dedicated to making your experience with Kobo products and services as enjoyable as possible.” (source: GetSatisfaction)
It has been my experience that these 'Mission Statements' only go as far as the bottom line or the consultants who instigate them.
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