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Old 04-18-2013, 03:58 PM   #256
JAcheson
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That reputation is gone. And by dropping Silverlight they have ticked off those developers as well. They have been very arrogant as of late, maybe even more so than Apple. Trouble is, unlike Apple, they have neither the products or mobile market share to overcome it. They need to loosen their grip or they'll have perhaps the most epic fall in the history of technology. And no matter how anybody feels about them, that wouldn't be good, in fact it could be catastrophic for businesses.
I can't see Microsoft disappearing entirely, they are simply too entrenched for that. Particularly when it comes to developer tools, which is one of the things they are still good at. (That's one of the reasons why they were able to make their XBox business successful: the developer tools for the 360 were much better than Sony's.)

On the other hand, I would absolutely welcome a replacement for Microsoft Office, which has become so buggy in it's last few iterations that I literally cannot use them at work. (Losing relative path support was the last straw for me.)
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:13 PM   #257
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I never claimed they were handy. I only claim it's not more complex. Having more than one program to do the same thing isn't a problem, I just ignore what I don't want. No folders and hundreds of icons in the start screen isn't a problem either. I've placed the icons I use most often on my main Metro interface, everything else is hidden from view. I never use the full screen apps, so they don't bother me either.
This is where you make the big mistake. The way Windows 8 works maybe doesn't bother YOU, but it does bother ME, and many other people.

Maybe it's not more complex than Windows 7, and the only thing is indeed that it is different. Fair enough. In that case, it comes down to:

"Does someone like the new way of working?"

In my case, it's "No". The difference is just that: a difference, and I don't see this new way of doing things as an improvement with regard to my daily computing tasks. I actually find the new way of working annoying. In the end, I'm just doing the same stuff in a different way, or am jumping through hoops (such as disabling Metro and installing a third party Start-menu) to get things done, and get them done in the way I like them. Many people seem to agree with me, when you take the lowly sales figures of Windows 8 into account.

Don't think I'm bashing Windows either: I've been using Windows since NT4 in 1996, and I was among the first to upgrade, even to Vista. I've never had any problems to speak of (even did some upgrades from XP to Vista, and some from Vista to 7, which all went fine, if you know what you're doing), and I always saw a good reason to upgrade. Now, with Windows 8, for the first time, I'm not seeing it, except if I want "to do things differently".

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Old 04-18-2013, 04:49 PM   #258
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I think Microsoft is trying to "fix" something that just isn't broken, Win 7 is fantastic and could be modified to use a touch interface easy enough. Win 8 will be the undoing of MS I fear...
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Old 04-18-2013, 06:05 PM   #259
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This is where you make the big mistake. The way Windows 8 works maybe doesn't bother YOU, but it does bother ME, and many other people.

Maybe it's not more complex than Windows 7, and the only thing is indeed that it is different. Fair enough. In that case, it comes down to:

"Does someone like the new way of working?"

In my case, it's "No". The difference is just that: a difference, and I don't see this new way of doing things as an improvement with regard to my daily computing tasks.
Exactly.

If I'm going to have to learn a new OS, I might as well switch to Linux, where at least my options are customizable.

Windows 8 removes the reason to stick within the Windows OS collection. It's not an upgrade; it's a whole different game, and if I have to learn from scratch, I could maybe try one of those other OS's that my geek friends are always telling me about.

The details of the pros and cons don't matter nearly as much as the fact that it's not "just keep doing what you were before; here's a half-page list of changes you'll have to deal with." Since I have no interest in a tablet, I have no interest in using a system designed for one--no incentive to buy a new computer anytime soon. My XP laptop is getting old and I'd love to replace it this year, but I won't be "upgrading" it for a W8 machine; I'll either fine a used W7 device or switch to to Mac or Unix.
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Old 04-18-2013, 06:10 PM   #260
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This is where you make the big mistake. The way Windows 8 works maybe doesn't bother YOU, but it does bother ME, and many other people.

Maybe it's not more complex than Windows 7, and the only thing is indeed that it is different. Fair enough. In that case, it comes down to:

"Does someone like the new way of working?"

In my case, it's "No". The difference is just that: a difference, and I don't see this new way of doing things as an improvement with regard to my daily computing tasks. I actually find the new way of working annoying. In the end, I'm just doing the same stuff in a different way, or am jumping through hoops (such as disabling Metro and installing a third party Start-menu) to get things done, and get them done in the way I like them. Many people seem to agree with me, when you take the lowly sales figures of Windows 8 into account
Sure. You won't see me argue against any of that.
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Old 04-18-2013, 06:31 PM   #261
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...or switch to to Mac or Unix.
You wouldn't ever see me switching to any Apple device. Apple's hardware choices are too limited for me, and sometimes plainly don't provide what I want, or provide it as an option for way too high a price. In addition to that, I don't like that company's (and some users'...) elitest attitude.

If I switch to another operating system, it would probably be FreeBSD, IF I can find hardware for which FreeBSD provides drivers. It's a direct descendant from Unix itself, as opposed to being a clone, like Linux is. The core operating system is developed as a complete unit, whereas Linux is a system compiled from many parts; kernel from Kernel.org, userland utilities from GNU, drivers from many different sources, etc... I like the FreeBSD-philosophy better than the Linux one.

Still, if I'd end up with Linux because of hardware considerations, then it'll probably be an Enterprise-grade Linux-version; if that's not possible, it would be Arch Linux.

I already use many open source programs that run on Linux/FreeBSD, and for all of my old games, I'd probably just keep my current system (and/or my next one) running alongside it.

The very real problem is that I need a suitable replacement for Photoshop CS5.1 and LightRoom 4 for my photography stuff. While The GIMP and RAWTherapee work, they are not cutting it with regard to usability and features, BY FAR.
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Old 04-18-2013, 08:10 PM   #262
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You wouldn't ever see me switching to any Apple device. Apple's hardware choices are too limited for me, and sometimes plainly don't provide what I want, or provide it as an option for way too high a price. In addition to that, I don't like that company's (and some users'...) elitest attitude.
I have similar thoughts, but the possibility of good vidding software makes me reconsider. However, I have no direct interest in working with a mac.

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The very real problem is that I need a suitable replacement for Photoshop CS5.1 and LightRoom 4 for my photography stuff. While The GIMP and RAWTherapee work, they are not cutting it with regard to usability and features, BY FAR.
GIMP works fine for my needs; I'm aware it isn't enough for professional-level photography works.

My holdout is ABBYY FineReader. But since they retired the features that made it the best OCR option for me, I'm willing to look into other OCR programs. It's definitely time to seriously think about the open-source OS world.
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:36 PM   #263
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Windows 8 removes the reason to stick within the Windows OS collection. It's not an upgrade; it's a whole different game, and if I have to learn from scratch, I could maybe try one of those other OS's that my geek friends are always telling me about.
As with any Windows OS, there are a bunch of things I needed to do to get it to work for me rather than vendors who think they know what I should want. With Windows 8, it's actually, for me, easier to customize as desired than it was with Vista or 7.

Used to be, the first thing was to install anti-virus. Now that Windows is reasonably secure by default, no more of that for me.

I also needed to install a startup manager program. No more of that, because a startup tab is now included in the Windows 8 task manager reached by Control-Alt-Delete.

I also needed to install a decent browser. Now Internet Explorer works fine.

I also needed, as in the past few Windows iterations, to apply something approaching the Windows Classic theme. Now, that's where I did feel a need for a third party product to retrofy Windows 8. This is, for me, the freeware SkipMetroSuiteUI.

The charms don't bother me and sometimes are a bit helpful. I kept them. The new start screen doesn't even bother me, although I did add an start-menu like Programs button to the toolbar using built-in Windows 8 facilities in case it begins to.

I do see, from this thread, that most customers are not OK with treating the user interface as an unruly puppy requiring taming. That's not my problem, but it must be a problem for Microsoft.

I think the biggest Windows 8 problem for Microsoft is the lack of killer apps so compelling that someone would much rather learn the foibles of that new puppy rather than lose access to the app. Of the anti-Windows 8 articles I've read, this ones that make the strongest impression on me are those criticizing the quality of Windows Store apps.

P.S. Not my style, but some may find this comes close to being a Windows 8 Metro killer app:

http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en...8-be35f2266a03

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Old 04-18-2013, 09:58 PM   #264
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The very real problem is that I need a suitable replacement for Photoshop CS5.1 and LightRoom 4 for my photography stuff. While The GIMP and RAWTherapee work, they are not cutting it with regard to usability and features, BY FAR.
And why not continue to use them with the (WinXP) virtual machine?
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:54 PM   #265
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:39 AM   #266
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:06 AM   #267
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Windows 8 is good but 8.1 one will be better from what I gather Microsoft is going to go to a yearly cycle with windows. In todays world that is the only way I think they can stay in the market. If they start selling windows licences for $15-20 a pop with an upgrade every year costing around the same.

But even then the thing is what OS your computer is running is becoming irrelevant to most people so is microsoft with it. Microsoft biggest customers are enterprise and selling licenses to them makes them a lot of dough. But with faster internet and local networks even that is going to become a shrinking market. Most corporations will shift to dumb terminals that run what ever app you want but all the processing power etc would be in the servers. The cost savings from computer maintenance, power bills, new machines and windows licenses will be to large for them to not to.
I think intel is already facing similar problems with people not wanting to upgrade their pcs every 2-3 years as the one they have already do what they need them to. And with Arm processors getting into servers they will start loosing the server market like they are loosing the mobile market unless they come up with something revolutionary. IBM moved to the server market years ago by selling out its consumer division HP and Dell are also moving towards it and cutting their consumer products.
So what we are seeing is not the end of Microsoft but the slow death of Windows and native os in general. That is a future I am scared off as to me in that future opensource will die small time developers will become irrelevant as most software will run in the cloud that means only large corporation like Google, IBM, Microsoft, Apple will be able to run or afford to run large servers for any software to run.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:23 AM   #268
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Windows 8 is good but 8.1 one will be better from what I gather Microsoft is going to go to a yearly cycle with windows. In todays world that is the only way I think they can stay in the market. If they start selling windows licences for $15-20 a pop with an upgrade every year costing around the same.

But even then the thing is what OS your computer is running is becoming irrelevant to most people so is microsoft with it. Microsoft biggest customers are enterprise and selling licenses to them makes them a lot of dough. But with faster internet and local networks even that is going to become a shrinking market. Most corporations will shift to dumb terminals that run what ever app you want but all the processing power etc would be in the servers. The cost savings from computer maintenance, power bills, new machines and windows licenses will be to large for them to not to.
I think intel is already facing similar problems with people not wanting to upgrade their pcs every 2-3 years as the one they have already do what they need them to. And with Arm processors getting into servers they will start loosing the server market like they are loosing the mobile market unless they come up with something revolutionary. IBM moved to the server market years ago by selling out its consumer division HP and Dell are also moving towards it and cutting their consumer products.
So what we are seeing is not the end of Microsoft but the slow death of Windows and native os in general. That is a future I am scared off as to me in that future opensource will die small time developers will become irrelevant as most software will run in the cloud that means only large corporation like Google, IBM, Microsoft, Apple will be able to run or afford to run large servers for any software to run.
Isn't this a full circle? I remember the rows of terminals (just monitors with keyboards) up against the wall, and you sent your messages, or did your work. There was a big machine in the basement that was the "cpu."

Also what happened to the virtual license scheme where companies only paid for software as it was used.

i.e. a 100 people in a company, but not 100 "word" licenses. Only so many as were used at a time. Then there was to be a larger processing company that had several client companies, and they would also collect and count what software was used.

i.e. a 1000 people in 10 companies might only have 250 or less word licenses which was the max used at one time.
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:03 AM   #269
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You wouldn't ever see me switching to any Apple device. Apple's hardware choices are too limited for me,
...
If I switch to another operating system, it would probably be FreeBSD, IF I can find hardware for which FreeBSD provides drivers.
...
The very real problem is that I need a suitable replacement for Photoshop CS5.1 and LightRoom 4 for my photography stuff. While The GIMP and RAWTherapee work, they are not cutting it with regard to usability and features, BY FAR.
Recently when visiting USA I was toying with an idea of purchasing a refurbished Mac Mini, but at the end I have purchased computer with better specs for less money.

I used to use FreeBSD for years. Later on I switched to PC-BSD. I gave up when the kernel for the new major Release kept seizing hopelessly when booting on my MoBo/processor combination. I even reported a bug and had it confirmed by developers. A Release much later had the same bug ... So I converted to Mint Linux. Things "Just Work" (TM) out of box there ;-)
Besides, for a long time Calibre didn't run on FreeBSD, which was a dealbreaker for me. And when they made it to run on FreeBSD, it was not the newest version of Calibre.
I gave the newest FreeBSD and PC-BSD installer a spin on my newly purchased i7 Toshiba notebook and I was very disappointed with the hardware compatibility.

Have a look at Darktable.
http://www.darktable.org/
darktable is an open source photography workflow application and RAW developer. A virtual lighttable and darkroom for photographers. It manages your digital negatives in a database, lets you view them through a zoomable lighttable and enables you to develop raw images and enhance them.

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My holdout is ABBYY FineReader. But since they retired the features that made it the best OCR option for me, I'm willing to look into other OCR programs. It's definitely time to seriously think about the open-source OS world.
Sometimes I want to read a book that is only available in pdf. Up until recently I have been using Readiris OCR program that came bundled with the HP printer/copier/fax machine.
I do not have Windows running machine at home anymore, so I took jet another hard look at what is available on Linux.
I have managed to convert the last few pdf e-books using Tesseract OCR. It has much less features than commercial OCR programs. It is a commandline tool without GUI. It does have some GUI, but I have made a shell script with the help of Sensei Google and the results are "Good Enough" (TM) for me. Before running the pdf through Tesseract you might want to clip it with pdf scissors - a java program that can be run directly from webpage using a browser. After Tesseract extracts text in a "raw text" format I run it through gVim and format it manually. Oh ... and Tesseract can't process pdf file directly, but my little script runs it through convert from imagemagick package.
The only thing that I miss is the ability of Tesseract to output the recognized text formatted with italics and bold. But, as I said ... good enough for quick and dirty convert.
Send me a PM if you are interested in more details.

Tesseract is a mature OCR engine. Let me quote Wikipedia:
Originally developed as proprietary software at Hewlett-Packard between 1985 and 1995, it had very little work done on it in the following decade. It was then released as open source in 2005 by Hewlett Packard and UNLV. Tesseract development has been sponsored by Google since 2006.[3] It is released under the Apache License, Version 2.0.[1][4][5]

Tesseract is considered one of the most accurate free software OCR engines currently available.[5][6]


There is also interesting project here
https://code.google.com/p/linux-inte...downloads/list

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Old 04-19-2013, 04:38 AM   #270
Katsunami
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Device: Kindle Paperwhite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
GIMP works fine for my needs; I'm aware it isn't enough for professional-level photography works.
I'm not a professional photographer either, but GIMP does not support adjustment layers. It's not a question of "a nice feature": I NEED that. On top of that, GIMP doesn't support 16-bit color editing, and it lacks many other features that have been available in Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro for years, sometimes for over a decade. Paint Shop Pro would do for me, IF they finally got around to *fixing* the durned color management. But PSP is not a Linux program either.

Therefore, to be able to use Photoshop (without jacking around with something like WINE), I need Windows or a Mac, and at this point, I'd rather install Windows 8, buy StarDock's Start8 for €5, kill Metro, and use Windows 8 as a flat-colored Windows 7, rather than switching to a Mac. On Windows 8, I can at least run everything I can run now on 7, while on the Mac, I'd loose many games and would need to keep a second computer active, instead of having it only as a backup.

However, seeing that I have a license for 7 lying around yet, and it being supported until 2020 at least, I think my next system will be running Windows 7 too, so that I have two computers that are basically the same, apart from speed. In the end, they'd be nice "nostaligc" systems, in the same way you see people still having an Amiga 500 around. (Need to create an image of a fresh and activated installation though, as I don't suppose Microsoft will keep the activation servers around for years after 2020...)

Quote:
It's definitely time to seriously think about the open-source OS world.
The problem with the open source world is that it's full of nerds (*). These people develop software that *they* find interesting or useful, and therefore you often see programs with the weirdest sort of features no sane person would have thought about, but missing features that any normal user not only wants, but actually NEEDS.

(*) I've been a nerd for ages; I've only begun de-nerdifying 5 years or so, seeing that my current computer is 4.5 years old apart from some minor upgrades, where in the past a computer wouldn't last 2 years with me.

Last edited by Katsunami; 04-19-2013 at 04:42 AM.
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