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Old 03-23-2013, 09:49 AM   #61
murraypaul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Tor is an imprint of Macmillan, which is a "major publisher" by any reasonable definition of the term. They have decided to do away with DRM.
I think you are nitpicking
I didn't say that all publishers required DRM on all their books.
Macmillan do require DRM on their non-Tor books, I believe?
Of the Big <however many there are now>, are there any that allow all of their books to be made available DRM free? If not, I think it is fair to say that those major publishers require DRM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:53 AM   #62
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It's certainly try to say that most major publishers use DRM on most of their books, but the specific question you ask was whether it was true that "major publishers require DRM on their eBooks". As Tor illustrates, the answer to that is "not always".
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:43 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
It's certainly try to say that most major publishers use DRM on most of their books, but the specific question you ask was whether it was true that "major publishers require DRM on their eBooks". As Tor illustrates, the answer to that is "not always".
Consider the words [on at least some] to have been inserted into the question.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:44 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taustin View Post
"It is still too early to tell the outcome."

So, really, no.
If there was a big effect, it would have been seen by now. That such an effect hadn't been seen is evidence that the DRM-fre status doesn't significantly affect sales negatively.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:40 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeshadow View Post
Some authors don't really know or think much about it.
(not the degree of sensitivity like our crowd here) e.g.
Holly Lisle admitted that she was astonished how important the topic was for her readers.
The depth of grokking the matter as deep as e.g. Stross has proven on his blog might still be an exception.

Whether readers even know what DRM is can vary GREATLY by genre. I've polled many a cozy mystery reader -- most don't know what it is and don't care. The number one reason they like buying books via Amazon is because they hit 'one click' and the book shows up on the device. It's easy and doesn't involve asking the neighbor/grandson/guru to set anything up.

The romance crowd seems slightly more aware of DRM from the blogs I follow (I haven't actually asked on any of the blogs) but it's not a hot topic. Some care, some don't.

I read the Holly Lisle post a while back and had to grin. But she writes in spec fiction and that crowd seems to care more and know more about DRM.

In my experience participating in reading groups, DRM is usually discovered "incidentally" when someone asks how to send a book to "their mom, friend, sister, etc." When told they can't, most aren't even upset. When asking, most don't even know they shouldn't do it based on the copyright/licensing agreements.

THAT is what publishers and/or authors stop with DRM--incidental sharing. Pirates continue on their way regardless of DRM. Readers shouldn't think DRM is an automatic "You are a thief" statement. It's really more about incidental sharing. Now whether it works or not, may be a different story.
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:06 PM   #66
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While there is probably some truth to the statement that authors and publishers often
believe that DRM is needed to prevent loss of sales due to piracy and casual sharing;
that questionable belief does not explain why several of the DRM scams are proprietary
to specific ebook retailers. Also, that these "DRM" scams are made to allow use only
on the devices that they sell, not on any other dedicated ereaders.

So, at least in some cases, the creators of the DRM scam - the book sellers - are designing it with use restrictions as a major objective, instead of anti-piracy of any
kind. That the authors and publishers don't seem to care or have any interest in the
issue, as long as their books are being sold, may be natural but I find it disappointing.

Luck;
Ken
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:25 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Maltby View Post
While there is probably some truth to the statement that authors and publishers often
believe that DRM is needed to prevent loss of sales due to piracy and casual sharing;
that questionable belief does not explain why several of the DRM scams are proprietary
to specific ebook retailers. Also, that these "DRM" scams are made to allow use only
on the devices that they sell, not on any other dedicated ereaders.

So, at least in some cases, the creators of the DRM scam - the book sellers - are designing it with use restrictions as a major objective, instead of anti-piracy of any
kind. That the authors and publishers don't seem to care or have any interest in the
issue, as long as their books are being sold, may be natural but I find it disappointing.

Luck;
Ken

What you're talking about is proprietary software--and DRM isn't the only way it's done. Kindle has a proprietary software and also doesn't support ePUB on its devices (not well, anyway). As an author, I have zero say in that so worrying about whether they also have proprietary DRM is a non-issue for me. The book is already proprietary to the device so me adding (or not) DRM is moot from that standpoint.

I make my books available in multiple formats. One of the major reasons I sell them from my website is so that a person can buy the two major formats AT THE SAME TIME without having to do the conversion step.

I'd be a lot more concerned about proprietary DRM if 1. I had any say in the matter or 2. my readers indicated it mattered. I've been selling books for 5 years. I have never once had anyone write and ask me where to buy with or without DRM. I have never even been asked by any reader about DRM.

I have had ONE email ask me if it was okay to share the book with X and how to email them a copy. (The answer is "Please do not." I can't arbitrarily grant a permission like that and void my own copyright that sits right in the front of the book).

That is not to say that I ignore the concerns of those who hate DRM. But I don't spend any time worrying over having it or not having it or how a particular retailer implements it.

If it does matter to any of my readers, they can hunt out my store or *usually* find the book on Smashwords (although it is getting harder to format for smashwords which results in delays publishing there.)

I listen to my readers, and honestly, no one has ever told me DRM is a concern. I do have readers who want to buy multiple formats at once and that was conveyed when I polled before setting up a storefront.
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:22 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Maltby View Post
While there is probably some truth to the statement that authors and publishers often believe that DRM is needed to prevent loss of sales due to piracy and casual sharing; that questionable belief does not explain why several of the DRM scams are proprietary
to specific ebook retailers. Also, that these "DRM" scams are made to allow use only on the devices that they sell, not on any other dedicated ereaders.
There are probably multiple reasons for developing an in-house DRM solution. They would include:
1) Increase tie-in/raising the walled garden.
2) Enable things not possible with the "standard" Adept solution/avoiding limitations of Adept.
3) Avoid paying Adobe 22c a book for something that they can provide for themselves for less.
None of the major books retailers use the "standard" Adept DRM scheme in all cases. So how standard is it, exactly?
Amazon don't, Apple don't, B&N don't, Kobo don't when delivering to their own devices. What %age of the US market is that, 95%+?
The Kobo example should give you pause in your conspiracy theories.
They are happy to sell you eBooks with Adept DRM, that you can use on any reader that supports it. Their devices support Adept, so you can read books bought from any other store that sells them. But even so, they use a proprietary DRM when delivering eBooks to their own devices. That would suggest that items 2 and 3 above are driving their decisions, not 1.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:38 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by avantman42 View Post
You forgot to include "but initial results suggest there was no increase in piracy."
It's not proof, but it is evidence, which is what you asked for.
No, it's really not. It's suggestive, as your quote says, but suggestive isn't evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avantman42 View Post
I admit it's not conclusive evidence, but it's the only evidence I've seen one way or the other. These discussions usually revolve around gut feelings rather than evidence.
"Gut feeling" and "suggestive" are pretty much the same thing.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:40 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
If there was a big effect, it would have been seen by now.
Doubtful. Certainly not guaranteed this quickly. And even if the effect were there now, it may or may not be recognized. It's only very recently that music companies have recognized (or admitted, at any rate) that file sharing boosts their sales, and some are still in denial.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:41 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Ken Maltby View Post
Also, that these "DRM" scams are made to allow use only on the devices that they sell, not on any other dedicated ereaders.
I guess you've never heard of Adobe Digital Editions. You know, the DRM used on about half the market?
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:50 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by taustin View Post
I guess you've never heard of Adobe Digital Editions. You know, the DRM used on about half the market?
Half as defined how?
Globally that might be true, but certainly not for the US or UK.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:46 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by murraypaul View Post
No.
They are saying "you must use a lock".
They don't care what make the lock is, as long as it is broadly as secure as the other locks on the market.
Do you genuinely not believe that major publishers require DRM on their eBooks?
Of course they care. If they could demand any lock they would choose a lock that was compatibel with any reader. But they cannot do that since the sellers have their own goal with the DRM.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:16 PM   #74
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Half as defined how?
Globally that might be true, but certainly not for the US or UK.
The market is roughly split between EPUB and Amazon. In an event, Ken's inflammatory statement is simply incorrect.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:23 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taustin View Post
I guess you've never heard of Adobe Digital Editions. You know, the DRM used on about half the market?
If you had quoted the sentence before the part you quoted that begins
with "Also," you might have noticed that I was not talking about all DRM
scams only that "several of the DRM scams are proprietary to specific
ebook retailers." In fact most of what I was saying was only in the context
of those booksellers who make their own ereading devices. Kobo could be
viewed as a partial exception that proves the rule.

Luck;
Ken
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