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Old 03-20-2013, 06:08 PM   #16
toddos
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Originally Posted by EowynCarter View Post
Yes. That the only sutiation I understand DRM -> renting.

But not for buying...
The music industry has actually figured this out pretty well. If you're buying music, for example from iTunes or Amazon, you get a DRM-free copy (there's still the ability to get DRMed stuff, but almost nobody uses it anymore). If you're subscribing to a service that allows downloads instead of just streaming, like Xbox Music (nee Zune) or Rhapsody (is that even still around?), the downloads are DRMed because your access to them relies on your subscription status.

Purchasing books == purchasing music
Borrowing books from the library, or a hypothetical Netflix-for-books type subscription service == downloadable subscription music
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:11 AM   #17
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I still wait for the majority of booksellers to learn THAT lesson.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:54 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Freeshadow View Post
I still wait for the majority of booksellers to learn THAT lesson.
It has nothing to do with the booksellers; it's the publishers and authors. All ebook sites (to the best of my knowledge) allow DRM-free downloads; it's the submitter's choice whether or not to use DRM.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:07 AM   #19
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Yes the choice of words was unlucky: It's the publishers who sell the first time.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
It has nothing to do with the booksellers; it's the publishers and authors. All ebook sites (to the best of my knowledge) allow DRM-free downloads; it's the submitter's choice whether or not to use DRM.
So a book from a particular author or publisher will have THEIR DRM scam
applied to it no matter who is selling it? The DRM scams are tied to the
book not to the book sellers, like Amazon and B&N?

With the advent of the Adobe DRM, you could have a point, but the major
book sellers are using "DRM" for their own purposes, and have a vested
interest in promoting its use.

Luck;
Ken
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:38 PM   #21
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You're confusing Amazon/B&N the bookseller with Amazon/B&N the device manufacturer.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
It has nothing to do with the booksellers; it's the publishers and authors. All ebook sites (to the best of my knowledge) allow DRM-free downloads; it's the submitter's choice whether or not to use DRM.
The smaller stores--booksonboard, diesel--used to inflict DRM on everything, and not long ago, but they've changed; Scalzi's Redshirts was pretty much the death knell of store-mandatory DRM. Since Tor announced they were publishing it without DRM, and customers had the author's permission to remove the DRM, the DMCA laws against anti-DRM software didn't apply, because the software wasn't being used to remove a copyright holder's restrictions.

The Sony store may still inflict DRM on all ebooks; Redshirts says it's sold w/o DRM but there's no way to tell from the website if that's true. (If it's not, that's an easy excuse to share drm-cracking software.) And the iBookstore has its own walled-garden issues.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:35 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latepaul View Post
You're confusing Amazon/B&N the bookseller with Amazon/B&N the device manufacturer.
I think it is the companies themselves that conflict the two. They seem to
be operating in a manner that they perceive will aid one of the other divisions.
Or perhaps are directed to do so from on high. I don't see how they could
perceive it (DRM) as being something that aids sales.

Luck;
Ken

P.S.; That they are able to convince or incentivize Authors and Publishers to believe
that they should have DRM "protection" for all their sales only makes the walls stronger.

Last edited by Ken Maltby; 03-21-2013 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Maltby View Post
P.S.; That they are able to convince or incentivize Authors and Publishers to believe
that they should have DRM "protection" for all their sales only makes the walls stronger.
I'd really like to see some proof that they're doing this. Quotes from an author or publisher? Something. Publishers have insisted on DRM since the very beginning of commercial ebooks.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:26 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by AnemicOak View Post
I'd really like to see some proof that they're doing this. Quotes from an author or publisher? Something. Publishers have insisted on DRM since the very beginning of commercial ebooks.
It's different for each retailer. Initially, B&N didn't have a DRM/no DRM option (this is for self-pub'd). I read on various forums that DRM was applied on all books (trad or self). From what I could tell from readers, this was true. Everything had DRM.

Amazon has had the option to put DRM on/off for KDP authors (self pub) HOWEVER, we heard from various trad authors that they had no choice--now the rumor was varied, sometimes saying Amazon required it of publishers and sometimes it was said the publishers required it. My guess is that for quite some time (and possibly still today) one or both required it of traditionally published books.

There are multiple ways to get a book loaded into Amazon--there are services that do it now so that a book can take advantage of "pre-released" purchases and can qualify for certain promotions. The author pays for these services (these same companies can get the ebook into libraries.) It's my understanding that when using the services, DRM is applied--but I don't know if that is Amazon's requirement or the service/publisher/author choice.

Kobobooks has an option for it and so far as I know is the only retailer where you can change your mind. With B&N and Amazon if you elect to add DRM initially, you cannot ask to have it removed later. I believe the same is true if you select lendable/not lendable, but I'd have to verify that.

Smashwords has never had it. AllRomance...I can't remember. I don't think they even have a selectable option so if they apply it, it's automatic.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks View Post
HOWEVER, we heard from various trad authors that they had no choice--now the rumor was varied, sometimes saying Amazon required it of publishers and sometimes it was said the publishers required it. My guess is that for quite some time (and possibly still today) one or both required it of traditionally published books.
Amazon required it only for publishers who were going through the Mobipocket service to get their books on Kindle originally. That stopped being required as they migrated to handling everything in house. Or at least that's what some publishers/editors have told a few authors that tried to get their books to be DRM free three or four years ago. I have heard that some third party services don't offer options and just DRM everything. Kind of like how various ebook distributors used to do.

Still it would be nice to see the requirements of these various places in writing somewhere.

I don't doubt that it's been required, or at least no option for NOT having it was available, over the years but it's not required today at least not anywhere I can come up with (maybe some 3rd party distros do?).


But my real question was with Ken's statement that "they" were doing something to "convince or incentivize" authors and publishers that they should use DRM. That's what I asked for some kind of info on as I've never heard or seen anything about this. What are they doing to convince folks? What incentives are they offering them?
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:12 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by AnemicOak View Post
Amazon required it only for publishers who were going through the Mobipocket service to get their books on Kindle originally. That stopped being required as they migrated to handling everything in house. Or at least that's what some publishers/editors have told a few authors that tried to get their books to be DRM free three or four years ago. I have heard that some third party services don't offer options and just DRM everything. Kind of like how various ebook distributors used to do.

I don't doubt that it's been required, or at least no option for NOT having it was available, over the years but it's not required today at least not anywhere I can come up with (maybe some 3rd party distros do?).


But my real question was with Ken's statement that "they" were doing something to "convince or incentivize" authors and publishers that they should use DRM. That's what I asked for some kind of info on as I've never heard or seen anything about this. What are they doing to convince folks? What incentives are they offering them?
Initially from what I heard, authors were told that the publisher platform didn't have an option to go DRM-free. No idea if that is true or if that's been changed. My *speculation* is that initially Amazon assumed and offered DRM to help entice publishers to the table--"look, it's safe!" and never thought there would be a day they wouldn't want it. So it may have been added later to the publisher upload platform (Their platforms are not the same as KDPs. The services have options that I do not have such as the aforementioned pre-release and pre-release pricing.)

I'm not much help on the incentive area. There are incentives for lending and a few other options (if you go exclusive I think you must allow lending--and I don't mean borrows. If you go exclusive, you get 70 percent commissions in some countries where you otherwise get 35) ...but I don't think I've ever seen any incentive for DRM. My impression from the way it is setup is that Amazon doesn't care one way or the other for KDP authors. There's a box, check it and live with it.

I have never seen any emails or discussion on it from Amazon. They do send out emails and tweets regarding their exclusive program and how great it is, but nothing on DRM so far as I know.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:20 AM   #28
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I am not for or against DRM. I am inclined to think it is necessary at present, but what do I know?

I don't see a lot of commercial success stories for publishers/vendors who have gone DRM free and the majority of the ones who use DRM seem to at least stay in business.

I realise music venders have done okay without DRM, but I do not think most publishers will do it anytime soon.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:34 AM   #29
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I am not for or against DRM. I am inclined to think it is necessary at present, but what do I know?

I don't see a lot of commercial success stories for publishers/vendors who have gone DRM free and the majority of the ones who use DRM seem to at least stay in business.
Baen is the poster child for anti-DRM success.

Samhain Press, Dreamspinner, Angry Robot, and Wildside Press all seem to be doing fine. They're not big-name publishers, but they're actively growing. A company doesn't need to become a billion-dollar corporation--especially in the span of a handful of years--to be successful.

Several of the mega-companies who use DRM just got slapped by the DOJ for collusion and price-fixing, because apparently their business model wasn't working well enough for them to be comfortable staying within the law.

Quote:
I realise music venders have done okay without DRM, but I do not think most publishers will do it anytime soon.
It'll be a while, but they'll drop DRM--because they hate Amazon. As long as their books are DRM'd, their Amazon customers aren't going to leave for other stores. (I find this hilarious. The publishers don't like Amazon's success, but they don't want to remove their content from the store. It's like they think Amazon should run itself for *their* benefit, rather than for Amazon's profit.)
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:43 PM   #30
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Samhain seems to be flourishing as does Ellora's Cave. Possibly do to the fact that many of their customers don't email their books to their grandmothers and while some may want to reread these books zillion times I suspect most read and delete.

Wildside and Dream spinner seem pretty small to be considered a commercial success. Angry Robots should do well but I would not bet the farm on it.

The question in my mind is are they more successful because of no DRM or in spite of it. Harlequin would do well with or without DRM but seem to feel they should have it although they do have a DRM free child company.

My opinion is that the majority of the buying public is not overwhelmingly concerned with DRM and until they are more interested in sharing books than reading them things will not change.
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