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Old 04-11-2013, 01:18 PM   #31
QuantumIguana
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A lot of the time when I see people pointing out "plot holes" in movies and television it's at least partly a failure of imagination and demand for pat answers on the viewer's part. For instance, a couple weeks ago on The Walking Dead someone fell unconscious from a point blank shot to the ribs while wearing body armor and a helmet, and there was a lot of "Butbutbut it didn't hit him in the head!" Well no, but it was still the force of a truck hitting him in an area the size of a fist, and it doesn't take a medical degree or more than eight seconds' thought to work out how that could lead to a temporary shutdown. Because it's not a set trope like the good ol' knockout blow to the head (a near impossibility in the real world without doing more serious damage), it might bring to mind the question, "Could that blow knock a person out?" but a high school graduate should be able to answer that question in the affirmative without blowing any fuses.
It reminds me of one of Aesop's fables:

AT a country fair there was a Buffoon who made all the people laugh by imitating the cries of various animals. He finished off by squeaking so like a pig that the spectators thought that he had a porker concealed about him. But a Countryman who stood by said: “Call that a pig’s squeak! Nothing like it. You give me till tomorrow and I will show you what it’s like.” The audience laughed, but next day, sure enough, the Countryman appeared on the stage, and putting his head down squealed so hideously that the spectators hissed and threw stones at him to make him stop. “You fools!” he cried, “see what you have been hissing,” and held up a little pig whose ear he had been pinching to make him utter the squeals.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:00 AM   #32
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Of course it does. If the dead flesh just ablates, it takes the energy with it. If more supple, living flesh stays connected to the whole structure, it can pull things very differently. Geesh, it's like you guys never shot a zombie before.....

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Old 04-13-2013, 06:04 AM   #33
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It's fairly simple physics. Momentum is mass x velocity. A bullet's maximum momentum is imparted when it leaves the gun, and conservation of energy requires that the gun (and therefore the shooter) feel the impact of the imparting that momentum (excluding recoilless systems for simplification). If the shooter didn't get thrown backwards then neither will the victim. All that body armour does is distribute the momentum over a wider area. Most movement on the part of the victim comes from shock, muscle reflex, and gravity - not the impact of the bullet. ... Oh, and zombies don't change the physics.
hold shotgun 5 MM from shoulder!
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:07 AM   #34
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conservation of momentum, which can be derived from Newton's third law but is more general
be afraid here
be very afraid!
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:56 AM   #35
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hold shotgun 5 MM from shoulder!
Hurts, but your still not picked up and thrown. Even when I was a much smaller (a preteen) out skeet shooting with 12g I never saw anyone, no matter how poorly they held the gun, lifted up into the air and thrown any distance. My mom who held the gun poorly ended up black and blue, but her feet stayed on the ground. People who fall from shooting is usually because of shock and poor balance, not the force of gun and even then, the fall over in place and do not fly away.

In short: 12g has plenty of force to kill you, way more then enough, but makes a very poor propulsion system.
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:40 AM   #36
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hold shotgun 5 MM from shoulder!
Once I was using by Dad's very old side-by-side 12G. I was still learning at that stage, and one of the things I was yet to learn was how to seat the butt of the gun firmly into my shoulder (it was lighter than the gun I was used to using). I had been doing badly all day, but the clincher came when I managed to accidentally pull both triggers at once. I have no idea whether I hit the clay target or not (I might have scared it to death , but it definitely did hurt my shoulder. It didn't come close to knocking me over (except, perhaps, in surprise) but it did leave a faint bruise. I learned to hold the gun better after that - experience being very a good teacher.
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Old 04-13-2013, 04:13 PM   #37
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When I was a little tyke, my father got my grand dad's 10 gauge goose gun with the extra long but only single barrel, and we went goose hunting and shot a goose from about 100 yards away. I ran off when the gun fired, but I noticed that dad sort of lurched back. That thing was easily longer than I was tall.
Then we had to go find a little boat and hunt for the wounded goose in the marsh.

Some of the nicer double guns won't let you fire two barrels at once or maybe it is that you can select not to be able to do that.
(That is what I have heard, so it might not be correct. I can talk about guns all day, but shotguns are at the bottom of my kit of knowledge.)

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Old 04-13-2013, 08:28 PM   #38
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[...]Some of the nicer double guns won't let you fire two barrels at once or maybe it is that you can select not to be able to do that. (That is what I have heard, so it might not be correct. I can talk about guns all day, but shotguns are at the bottom of my kit of knowledge.)
Most of the others shooting with me (I was part of a school team) used newer under-and-over shotguns with just a single trigger, you just pulled it a second time for the second barrel. They were very nice guns to use.
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:10 AM   #39
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Most of the others shooting with me (I was part of a school team) used newer under-and-over shotguns with just a single trigger, you just pulled it a second time for the second barrel. They were very nice guns to use.
That is the way to go.

I have a derringer like that.

(From my Western gambling days.)



Naw, but I do have the derringer. The pin mechanism cycles for each hammer drop. They used to make a 4 shot one too. One was used in the Blade Runner movie.

My experience with shotguns is with old ones that members of the family had. They all had the two hammers you pulled back and I think two triggers.
Probably that is how they kept both barrels from firing. Just pull one hammer back at a time.

"Old School!"

--- don't hesitate to correct me on that if you know better.
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:30 PM   #40
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They used to make a 4 shot one too. One was used in the Blade Runner movie.
Funny you mention it, I was just watching Blade Runner, and I also just discovered the Internet Movie Firearms Databse.
Seems that Derringer has shown up in a lot of movies.

As for shotguns, I'm an 11-87 guy, myself. And I use a padded shoulder pad...I have nothing to prove. :-)

Indeed, at the trap range, the worst I've ever seen is a newbie small person with poor form stumble back a step or two from losing their balance.

ApK

Last edited by ApK; 04-15-2013 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Blade Running? Really?
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:40 PM   #41
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My Dad's side-by-side was hammerless (so maybe it wasn't as old as I remember it being - though it was certainly old compared to what my friends had access to), so as far as I know there was no way to prevent both going off other than learning to keep your fingers where they were supposed to be*.

ETA: * Which is always a good thing to learn when handling guns.

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Old 04-14-2013, 01:14 PM   #42
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How much can you get away with?
If it's mystery, I'd say not much. Readers like a tight, complete ending.

For fantasy and paranormal, there can be some slippage because those are hard to juggle every explanation. Heck, explaining EVERYTHING would make things less mysterious and therefore less magical or intriguing.
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Old 04-14-2013, 04:51 PM   #43
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There's a lot of handwavium in some of the best SF/F, I think.
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Old 04-14-2013, 08:40 PM   #44
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There's a lot of handwavium in some of the best SF/F, I think.
Yep. Learning to be a magician - distract the audience with a good story and/or characters and hope they won't notice the plot holes poking out of your sleeve.
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:05 PM   #45
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My Dad's side-by-side was hammerless (so maybe it wasn't as old as I remember it being - though it was certainly old compared to what my friends had access to), so as far as I know there was no way to prevent both going off other than learning to keep your fingers where they were supposed to be*.

ETA: * Which is always a good thing to learn when handling guns.
Hammerless?
The shells were probably smokeless powder as well!

And no ram rod.
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