Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > Writers' Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-06-2013, 11:04 PM   #1
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,136
Karma: 68535835
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Sony650
Getting away with it?

I was re-watching some of the newer Dr Who recently - a lot of laughs and a lot of fun ... but holes and inconsistencies? You bet. Same goes for lots of movies and TV series, the more modern the worse it gets (it seems to me). But that doesn't stop (at least some of) them from being enjoyable. Much the same applies to books, though I think readers have less tolerance for holes than viewers. Why?

When you read critical reviews of many books the plot-holes and inconsistencies often get listed near the top of any complaints. If you write fantasy and distant sci-fi you are bound to have some issues, it can't all be completely realistic or it wouldn't be fantasy and distanct sci-fi. But some stories get away with it and others don't. Why is that?

I could happily gloss over this with: Oh, if it's fast-paced enough then the readers won't even notice. And to a certain extent I think this is true. Give the person a fun ride and they won't care about the holes. But I also wonder if some sorts of holes are worse than others. Are there some inconsistencies that a reader is more willing to swallow than others?

How much can you get away with?
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2013, 12:42 AM   #2
Turtle91
Guru
Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Turtle91 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Turtle91's Avatar
 
Posts: 669
Karma: 3807234
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Shannon, Ireland today
Device: iPhone 5/iPad 1&2/Surface Pro/Kindle PW
Well, it's obvious isn't it?

Readers are smarter than your average boob-tube watcher!!

Seriously though...I have been banned from commenting on said holes/inconsistencies during any TV show...apparently I'm supposed to sit back and willingly suspend my disbelief...except in the case of Star Trek and any GOOD Sci-Fi (is there bad Sci-Fi?). We all know that stuff is TRUE and it's just a Govm'nt Conspiracy to keep it from us good folks!! Holes/inconsistencies will just get fixed when they jump through the time dilation chamber/donut....
Turtle91 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Enthusiast
Old 03-07-2013, 01:50 AM   #3
crich70
Grand Sorcerer
crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.crich70 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
crich70's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,085
Karma: 20740757
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monroe Wisconsin
Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)
I think it has to do with the difference between seeing and comprehending. When you see an image on a movie/tv screen it's there and gone before you have time to think about it. But with a written document you are forced to slow down and read every single word and understand what you are reading in order to create the picture of what is happening. It's like the difference between a dream and waking life. Even if you remember dreaming you don't often remember many details (if any) but in the waking world you have to pay some attention to what is going on round you even if you don't see/understand everything. So we notice if something doesn't make sense in writing more often than if it's a visual presentation because we have to take more time to comprehend what we are reading.
crich70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2013, 06:04 AM   #4
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,136
Karma: 68535835
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Sony650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle91 View Post
Well, it's obvious isn't it?

Readers are smarter than your average boob-tube watcher!!
[...]
I think you can be arrested for being one of those!
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2013, 06:49 AM   #5
VydorScope
Wizard
VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
VydorScope's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,359
Karma: 35123778
Join Date: Jun 2011
Device: Kindle Fire HD 7
I deliberately and intentionally ignore that stuff in Dr. Who. I really enjoy the current reboot of the show, and do not care to pick it apart.

I say that because I bet more people feel the same way when they watch TV/Movies.

I do no think that books are any different really. I have big mistake in one of my books that is out there, and to date no one has called me on it. I did admit to it on my blog when I wrote a "fix" for it in a later book, but it supports my point. I do my best to avoid ay holes/etc. But they slip through even the best writers.
VydorScope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2013, 01:39 PM   #6
J. Garrett
Enthusiast
J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.J. Garrett ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
J. Garrett's Avatar
 
Posts: 46
Karma: 1000010
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Device: Kindle, 6" E-Ink
I always try to make sure that no glaring plot holes or inconsistencies make their way through to the final draft, but I suppose it's going to happen sometimes and there's the chance that things most people won't notice [and even the writer might not notices] can be picked up on by the kinds of people who dig deeply into stories and try to tease out things like that.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with leaving certain things vague and letting the reader come up with their own idea to fill that hole. Of course, you do have to be careful there, because some readers do want all the details or maybe will unintentionally fill the hole with something they don't like. So, I guess it's a balancing act, of sorts. How much do you want to explain? And do your "plot holes" work within the framework of what your narrator [and, by extension, your reader] should know about?

Not all plot holes are created equal, is what I'm getting at.
J. Garrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2013, 07:19 PM   #7
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,136
Karma: 68535835
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Sony650
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Garrett View Post
[...]Not all plot holes are created equal, is what I'm getting at.
I agree. For a start some holes are built into the original premise. To take up my Dr Who example: crossing his own timeline is built-in unless he only ever moves forward in time, but they have to say "oh no, I can't do that" in certain places or the particular story they're creating just won't work. And we happily go along with it.

Normally I'd say that the big "no no" is to break your own rules - but even that doesn't hold in something like Dr Who. Maybe the rule is more like: don't break your own rules unless you do it deliberately. Seeing a writer stumble accidentally is like watching someone trip over their own feet, we can't help but be amused even though (or perhaps because) we do it ourselves and know how embarrassing and sometimes painful it can be.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 01:39 PM   #8
taosaur
intelligent posterior
taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.taosaur ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
taosaur's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,230
Karma: 12629130
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ohiopolis
Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2, Nook HD+, Xperia Ion
It depends a lot on the genre and the expectations the author sets up for the reader. In a mystery or procedural where the plot logic is the main draw, inconsistencies are less forgivable, whereas a fantasy or speculative story can get away with a lot of hand-waving.

The easiest way that a lot of authors get away with inconsistency these days, though, is to set the story up as at least partly absurdist from the start. They might use an unreliable narrator, introduce some quantumy metaphysics, go for full blown magical realism, or take the meta-narrative approach of hanging a lantern on unlikely events by declaring them "like something that would happen in a novel." Going meta in a lighthearted way a la Gaiman can be very satisfying for contemporary readers while also giving the author all the wiggle room in the world short of total incoherence.
taosaur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 01:54 PM   #9
VydorScope
Wizard
VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.VydorScope ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
VydorScope's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,359
Karma: 35123778
Join Date: Jun 2011
Device: Kindle Fire HD 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by taosaur View Post
"like something that would happen in a novel." Going meta in a lighthearted way a la Gaiman can be very satisfying for contemporary readers while also giving the author all the wiggle room in the world short of total incoherence.
I've done that I had a chance encounter that I really wanted to happen, that while it was POSSIBLE, I knew it would seem a bit to convenient to be chance. So the main character in the scene says something like "This kind of thing doesn't happen in real life" BUT I use that in the story to make them suspicious of the event. So I guess that make its better, right?
VydorScope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:01 AM   #10
frahse
occasional author
frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
frahse's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,661
Karma: 2049971684
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wandering God's glorious hills, valleys and plains.
Device: Kindle3-3G, Archos 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
---
How much can you get away with?
You gmw are one of those people who "don't do even numbers well."

On the subject though, I have given up on several TV programs that started out fairly well, but then went crazy.

Homeland
Revolution

Others that I have managed to tolerate so far are
Grimm
Falling Skies
frahse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:05 AM   #11
frahse
occasional author
frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.frahse ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
frahse's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,661
Karma: 2049971684
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wandering God's glorious hills, valleys and plains.
Device: Kindle3-3G, Archos 43
And by the way, my science is always perfect!

My stuff always works.
Well, at least on that other world, in that other universe, for those creatures...
frahse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 07:49 AM   #12
gmw
cacoethes scribendi
gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.gmw ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
gmw's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,136
Karma: 68535835
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Device: Sony650
Quote:
Originally Posted by frahse View Post
You gmw are one of those people who "don't do even numbers well."
Hmmm... Now is this a reference to my current Karma levels that are most definitely odd at this moment (though not a prime, I'm sorry to say ) ... or is it a polite way of saying I'm odd. Either way, I'm happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frahse View Post
On the subject though, I have given up on several TV programs that started out fairly well, but then went crazy.[...]
TV series seem particularly guilty of the offense, I think - as Turtle91 suggested - the writers rely on the average viewer having a short attention span.
gmw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 11:06 AM   #13
forsooth
tec montage
forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
forsooth's Avatar
 
Posts: 435
Karma: 544444445
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: harsh unforgiving places
Device: kindles, lenovo, chromebook, mobiles
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw View Post
Hmmm... Now is this a reference to my current Karma levels that are most definitely odd at this moment (though not a prime, I'm sorry to say ) ... or is it a polite way of saying I'm odd. Either way, I'm happy.
high probability reference to odd karma rounding to zero ability difficulty.

..9 + 1 .NE. .10 (mobileread range)
forsooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 11:09 AM   #14
forsooth
tec montage
forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.forsooth ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
forsooth's Avatar
 
Posts: 435
Karma: 544444445
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: harsh unforgiving places
Device: kindles, lenovo, chromebook, mobiles
QED

58999999 +11 = 59000009
forsooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 02:48 PM   #15
morriss003
Evangelist
morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.morriss003 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
morriss003's Avatar
 
Posts: 437
Karma: 3409790
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Maui
Device: kindle
I don't mind suspending disbelief for the initial plotline, but if I'm asked to suspend disbelief for side plots, I give up. I gave up on Revolution real fast. I'm barely hanging on to Falling Skies. That show and Terra Nova were hurt by poor casting on the male leads. I don't mind dubious science in science fiction, but I won't accept it in other genres. I hate impossibly noble men in romance and stupid women in all genres. For some reason, TV writers love stupid women, probably because the writers are men.
morriss003 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:28 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.