Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > General Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-02-2013, 10:23 AM   #16
murraypaul
Interested Bystander
murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.murraypaul ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,224
Karma: 10210627
Join Date: Jun 2008
Device: Sony PRS505, Nook Color(CM7), iPad3
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeD View Post
Steve: It was "accidental" in that he likely didn't know he was spending real money to acquire the items. Too many games on the app store make it less than obvious that real money is involved and if you're in the window of just having entered your password (which most people are when they download a free app to let their kid play for a few minutes) the costs will quickly mount up.

It might be that where you spend coins earned in the game to buy new ammo/weapons there's an extra button that lets the player seemingly get them without needing any coins. Little do they realise their parents are footing the bill.
I think a small child may well realise not what is happening, but every in-app purchase, no matter how it is represented in-game, triggers a standard system confirmation popup saying exactly what the cost would be.
murraypaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 10:35 AM   #17
NickyWithNook
Fanatic
NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
NickyWithNook's Avatar
 
Posts: 543
Karma: 2703332
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Michigan, USA
Device: Nook GlowLight, Kindle PW2, iPad 3, Nook Tablet & Color, Rooted STR
Some games let you "buy" stuff with pretend money, and kids as young as 5 won't necessarily be able to tell the difference.
NickyWithNook is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Enthusiast
Old 03-02-2013, 01:34 PM   #18
ucfgrad93
Wizard
ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ucfgrad93 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
ucfgrad93's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,281
Karma: 7518121
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Colorado
Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2nd Gen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo1967 View Post
Credit to Apple though for agreeing to refund the money.
Agreed. That said, it should only be a one time thing for Apple to refund the money. If it happens again, I say the parents should have to pay up.
ucfgrad93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 01:58 PM   #19
BWinmill
Wizard
BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.BWinmill ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 1,757
Karma: 14842230
Join Date: Sep 2011
Device: Sony PRS-T1
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucfgrad93 View Post
Agreed. That said, it should only be a one time thing for Apple to refund the money. If it happens again, I say the parents should have to pay up.
Another option is that Apple can refund the unused portion of the in app purchase and disable the remainder of the in app purchase. There's no good reason for them to deny the refund, within a certain period after the purchase, since they have everything locked down with DRM.
BWinmill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 02:25 PM   #20
xg4bx
Are you gonna eat that?
xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.xg4bx ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
xg4bx's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,619
Karma: 22984236
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phillipsburg, NJ
Device: Kindle 3, Nook STG
This is why when I have kids I'm setting up an Atari for them if they want to play games. It was good enough for me as a kid and I certainly won't need to worry about app stores or extraneous purchases.
xg4bx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 02:51 PM   #21
JoeD
Guru
JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 883
Karma: 4235574
Join Date: Nov 2007
Device: Hanlin v3, iPad, Kindle 4NT
Quote:
Originally Posted by murraypaul View Post
I think a small child may well realise not what is happening, but every in-app purchase, no matter how it is represented in-game, triggers a standard system confirmation popup saying exactly what the cost would be.
and tap, it's gone and the kid is back in the game using those coins/strawberries/buckets of stars until they run out and want some more or decide to stock up on loads at once.

The first time the parents may know about it may well be when the email confirmations start to arrive (I don't think they're immediate but delayed and batched) or when they next check their CC.

Even if a parent who is supervising their kid and glancing at the phone now and then plus listening out to make sure they're still playing the game and not doing something they shouldn't, would likely miss the confirmation prompts as they're easily dismissed.

The only way to stop this if a kid is given access to the phone at an age where they may not comprehend the meaning of every screen, is to ensure IAP is disabled and a password forced for each purchase, however most parents (unless they've seen this news report ) won't know that's needed and the defaults won't offer them much protection.

If I've misunderstood what you were saying, and you meant that whilst a kid might make the mistake, an adult shouldn't then I agree. Although sometimes so many popups occur that people get used to dismissing them. Still their fault for not reading it, unless the game happens to use an in-game currency then people may mistake the confirmation dialogue as buying using the in-game money and not real money.

I can understand why Amazon and Apple try to avoid the password entry requirement though, I bet the number of refunds they have to do is far smaller than the amount they'd lose to people changing their minds when they've to enter their pass, or forgetting their pass and deciding it's not worth looking it up right now.

Last edited by JoeD; 03-02-2013 at 03:10 PM.
JoeD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 03:16 PM   #22
EowynCarter
Wizard
EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.EowynCarter ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 4,067
Karma: 1587624
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Paris
Device: Cybooks; Sony PRS-T1
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumIguana View Post
I think the password was to unlock the iPad. The problem was that they hadn't set up a password for purchases. It used to be that kids couldn't spend money unless you gave them money. Technology makes it so easy to spend money that people haven't fully adapted to it yet.
I wouldn't let my child alone without explaining about the in-app purchases, and only if he is old enough to understand.

And just letting a $$$ device in the hands of a child...
EowynCarter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 04:10 PM   #23
Andrew H.
Grand Master of Flowers
Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,187
Karma: 8233324
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Naptown
Device: Kindle PW, Kindle 3 (aka Keyboard), iPhone, iPad 3 (not for reading)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeD View Post
The only way to stop this if a kid is given access to the phone at an age where they may not comprehend the meaning of every screen, is to ensure IAP is disabled and a password forced for each purchase, however most parents (unless they've seen this news report ) won't know that's needed and the defaults won't offer them much protection.
I think the real issue is that parents don't realize that several thousand dollars in charges is a possibility. The IAPs are password protected by default, and you can turn them off entirely or even set an allowance if you want. All of the necessary technological tools are available...but only if you *know* what kind of risk there is. The problem, as stated above, is that most people either don't know about the risk at all, or if they do know about the risk, they think that they may be charged an extra 99¢ or so.

I'm not sure why there isn't a default $25 (pick a number) daily limit for IAPs, which you can override in some onerous way if necessary, but which then resets itself to $25 on the next day.
Andrew H. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 04:39 PM   #24
Billi
Wizard
Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Billi ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Billi's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,223
Karma: 13235489
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Berlin
Device: Cybook, iRex, PB, Onyx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew H. View Post
I think the real issue is that parents don't realize that several thousand dollars in charges is a possibility.
Or that parents once again used an electronic device as a baby sitter?
Billi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 04:51 PM   #25
NickyWithNook
Fanatic
NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NickyWithNook ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
NickyWithNook's Avatar
 
Posts: 543
Karma: 2703332
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Michigan, USA
Device: Nook GlowLight, Kindle PW2, iPad 3, Nook Tablet & Color, Rooted STR
This "electronic babysitter" assumption bugs me. If we all use electronic devices and it's OK, why isn't it OK for kids to use them? It might just be "playing" rather than "babysitting." I'm careful if I've put in a password recently, but otherwise I don't see the issue. They can use the iPad from time to time without me feeling like I'm using it as a babysitter.
NickyWithNook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 04:53 PM   #26
Bilbo1967
Not scared!
Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Bilbo1967 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Bilbo1967's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,209
Karma: 25371058
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midlands, UK
Device: Sony 650, Sony T2, Xoom, Nexus 7 (2012 & 2013), Nook ST (x3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billi View Post
Or that parents once again used an electronic device as a baby sitter?
To be fair, it was only for 15 minutes. It seems a little harsh to characterise that as using an electronic devive as a baby sitter.
Bilbo1967 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 05:10 PM   #27
Ekaros
Illiterate newbie
Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Ekaros ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Ekaros's Avatar
 
Posts: 508
Karma: 1702090
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Finland
Device: Sony PRS-T1
My problem with this isn't stupid or ignorant people losing money, but damage which success of this kind of business models cause on gaming industry. Which I prefer not happening.
Ekaros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 05:16 PM   #28
shootingMaNs
Summer?
shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.shootingMaNs ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
shootingMaNs's Avatar
 
Posts: 188
Karma: 504190
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Endicott, NY
Device: Sony PRS-600, R.I.P.- Kobo Mini :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyWithNook View Post
This "electronic babysitter" assumption bugs me. If we all use electronic devices and it's OK, why isn't it OK for kids to use them? It might just be "playing" rather than "babysitting." I'm careful if I've put in a password recently, but otherwise I don't see the issue. They can use the iPad from time to time without me feeling like I'm using it as a babysitter.
I agree. We allow our youngest (9) to use my wife's ipad to play a game or watch Netflix, but it's regulated, and he isn't allowed to disappear to his room with it.
shootingMaNs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 05:20 PM   #29
JoeD
Guru
JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 883
Karma: 4235574
Join Date: Nov 2007
Device: Hanlin v3, iPad, Kindle 4NT
Quote:
Originally Posted by EowynCarter View Post
I wouldn't let my child alone without explaining about the in-app purchases, and only if he is old enough to understand.

And just letting a $$$ device in the hands of a child...
That assumes the parent is aware of the implications of IAP. If they were, most would not only explain to their child not to buy things, but probably also turn it off just in case they don't understand or still made a mistake.

As for not giving a device to a kid or (as another poster said) using it as a babysitter. If you trust your child not to throw a temper tantrum when they lose and to sit carefully with the device, there's no reason not to let them use it. If they do drop it and break it, well accidents will happen and that's the risk you took giving it to a child.

Just because a child is playing a game on an tablet or phone rather than a DS, console, computer or board doesn't make any difference imo. Play is play and considering how important technology is to most people's lives now, there's possibly many advantages to introducing children to it early.

That said, I'm sure some parents do hand over phones just to keep their kids quiet rather than engage with them themselves aka using it as a babysitter, much like some parents will let the TV be the babysitter. However, just because some do that, does not mean every child that watches TV is doing so because their parents don't give a .... and are letting the TV babysit, any more so than it does when they're using a tablet/phone/other device.
JoeD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 05:34 PM   #30
JoeD
Guru
JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.JoeD ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 883
Karma: 4235574
Join Date: Nov 2007
Device: Hanlin v3, iPad, Kindle 4NT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew H. View Post
I think the real issue is that parents don't realize that several thousand dollars in charges is a possibility. The IAPs are password protected by default, and you can turn them off entirely or even set an allowance if you want.
They're not protected by default, that's the problem. The initial purchase of the game be it paid or free is protected by a password, but for 15 minutes after that IAPs are wide open for purchasing with only a confirmation dialogue to tap yes on (Unless that has changed in a more recent firmware update, although I'm not aware of that been the case, I could be wrong).

Had IAPs been considered a separate thing to the App store purchase and a password entry required again the first time you try to make an IAP, then a lot of these cases would have never happened.

The only possibilities then would be if the child returned to the app store within the 15 minute window and bought more games, or if a parent paid for an IAP for them and then the kid bought more.

Again, unless the parent is aware that the 15 minute window exists they may assume that since they had to enter a password to buy the app (even if it was free) that they'd have to enter it whenever they buy anything and feel safe letting a child play on a few games.

I'm not sure what the solution is, since the options do now exist to prevent IAPs and to require a password with every purchase. It's a question of owners not been aware of these options nor been aware that the default doesn't require a password. Apple needs to do a better job of notify users about the existence of these options and what the default setting implies, or they need to make the default be require pass all the time and inform the user they can turn that off in the options if they want.

Of the parents I've mentioned the potential issues of IAP to, very very few of them were even aware of the potential costs that could occur just from letting their kid play a game. Most assumed as long as they stayed in the game and didn't visit the app store they'd be fine and even then expected to have to enter a password to spend any money. All now make use of the IAP disable options. It's really imo a question of Apple raising awareness.

Quote:
I'm not sure why there isn't a default $25 (pick a number) daily limit for IAPs, which you can override in some onerous way if necessary, but which then resets itself to $25 on the next day.
Agree totally with this.

Last edited by JoeD; 03-02-2013 at 05:42 PM.
JoeD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anybody excited about the food&drink category added to the app store? =X= Apple Devices 2 07-14-2012 03:22 PM
Free (nook/Kindle/XtianBk/Sony) New Mom Guide to Dealing with Dad [Christian Advice] ATDrake Deals, Freebies, and Resources (No Self-Promotion) 2 06-09-2012 01:17 PM
HSN officially details NC Update & App Store in April Ken Stuart Nook Color & Nook Tablet 46 03-30-2011 10:53 PM
Just $.99 for "Just Me and My Dad" Interactive e-Book in App Store BigTunaNewMedia Deals, Freebies, and Resources (No Self-Promotion) 0 02-03-2011 11:20 AM
Kill Bill : Volume 2 - best movie of the year? Colin Dunstan Lounge 3 04-15-2004 12:45 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:44 PM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.