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Old 02-27-2013, 11:30 AM   #46
DiapDealer
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I find it amusing when people gnash their teeth over the "sheer amount of drivel" out there when it comes to self-published authors. As if there is no hope at all to find their way through to some gems. As if they have to navigate it at all.

Unless you're in the habit of blindly grabbing traditionally published books/authors on a whim, navigating the slushpile of indies is no different than how people have always populated their TBR lists: word of mouth, recommendations from friends/associates, online reviews/blogs, online reading communities, etc. And now sample chapters. Cream still rises. It's not like you're stranded in a jungle of books with no options other than "poke and hope" (any more than you've ever been, anyway).

And if you are in the habit of buying traditionally published books at complete and utter random... well then you're no stranger to the occasional piece of garbage anyway.

The idea that there's an endless morrass of indie books with absolutely no means of separating the wheat from the chaff is quite tired, and needs to be put to rest.

And hey... if you don't feel you should have to do even the slightest bit of research before trying an unknown author, then you still likely have enough traditionally vetted material to last you a lifetime anyway.

If it's "bad writing," it'll show up in the sample.

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Old 02-27-2013, 11:33 AM   #47
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Doesn't it come to the same thing though at least when the author self-edits their own work? Granted it is possible to miss some things as everyone is human but especially now that people can self-publish through places like Smashwords and Amazon doesn't bad editing = bad writing in some cases?
If you view the end product as "writing" without any distinction between the different aspects of creating a book, then yes, but then a bad cover would be bad writing as well. Sort of like treating the writer as the captain of the ship...whatever happens on the ship is his responsibility.

But I think there is a difference between failure to have good editing done (by yourself or another), and inability to write well.

ApK

Last edited by ApK; 02-27-2013 at 09:38 PM. Reason: Clarifying first sentence.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:38 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by darryl View Post
Perhaps sellers or even authors themselves may start identifying whether they have used editors etc to assist with their work.[/url]
This is already starting to happen on Amazon. I've come across several books with the editor credited right next to the author. The capability is there because of editors of anthologies and such, but self-pub authors are using it to credit the editors who worked on their book.

Of course, it means next to nothing until one gets an idea of whether or not the editor is competent. I worry that the "editor" credit will start going the way of the film producer credit - you won't know what that person actually did, only that they were promised credit for it.

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When ebooks are made available in all the Kindle stores, it would sometimes be a good idea to have specific editions for different countries. If I get a book from a US indie then I'm fine with reading "color" instead of "colour" but some things really don't cross the pond well... Like a description during the siege of Leningrad where a soldier was wearing "patched pants and suspenders"
While I believe that an indie should pay for the best editor they can afford, I'm not in agreement with saddling them with the expectations of translation costs as well. As long as the edition is clearly marked or otherwise obviously US-centric, I think that is sufficient.

If I get a book from a UK or Australian indie, I *expect* a certain amount of localized terms and references - it's part of the reason I enjoy reading them.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:11 PM   #49
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Perhaps I'm missing something, and I am tired, but I don't see anything especially bad about that paragraph.

Seems to convey a "Marsha Marsha Marsha!" state of mind reasonably well.
You need some proper rest to put you in a proper state of mind so you can properly understand his proper writing on the topic of proper lady that knew her proper place, always her proper place, proper greetings and proper mannerism.




See, I can do it to. Maybe I should publish a book.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:14 PM   #50
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If I get a book from a UK or Australian indie, I *expect* a certain amount of localized terms and references - it's part of the reason I enjoy reading them.
Yes, and as I've said I'm fine with books in US English and it's usually not a problem because it's either just different spelling or words which are different but don't have a specific meaning in UK English (i.e eggplant/aubergine or diaper/nappy) But that particular thing I mentioned kind of broke the atmosphere of the scene a bit - yes, I knew that the soldier was wearing patched trousers and braces and not patched underpants and garter belt...but that was still the first image that sprung to mind

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Old 02-27-2013, 12:27 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Geralt View Post
You need some proper rest to put you in a proper state of mind so you can properly understand his proper writing on the topic of proper lady that knew her proper place, always her proper place, proper greetings and proper mannerism.




See, I can do it to. Maybe I should publish a book.
Yes, "Marsha Marsha Marsha!" "Proper Proper Proper! Proper this proper that, I'm sick of Proper!"
If the intent was to convey she was fed up with being proper, I think it worked.

Oh course, Jan Brady conveyed the same sentiment in only three words, but hey...we can't all be Sherwood Schwartz....

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Old 02-27-2013, 12:41 PM   #52
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Yes, "Marsha Marsha Marsha!" "Proper Proper Proper! Proper this proper that, I'm sick of Proper!"
If the intent was to convey she was fed up with being proper, I think it worked.

Oh course, Jan Brady conveyed the same sentiment in only three words, but hey...we can't all be Sherwood Schwartz....
Who knows what his intent was? If he was a little bit better with descriptions, maybe I would know Maybe that would be more proper
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:52 PM   #53
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Yes, and as I've said I'm fine with books in US English and it's usually not a problem because it's either just different spelling or words which are different but don't have a specific meaning in UK English (i.e eggplant/aubergine or diaper/nappy) But that particular thing I mentioned kind of broke the atmosphere of the scene a bit - yes, I knew that the soldier was wearing patched trousers and braces and not patched underpants and garter belt...but that was still the first image that sprung to mind
I can understand that. I have friends from various parts of the UK who sometimes visit Nashville, and hilarity often ensues due to language differences. Especially if we've been drinking. I'm a horrible influence on them, I admit.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:58 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
I find it amusing when people gnash their teeth over the "sheer amount of drivel" out there when it comes to self-published authors. As if there is no hope at all to find their way through to some gems. As if they have to navigate it at all.

Unless you're in the habit of blindly grabbing traditionally published books/authors on a whim, navigating the slushpile of indies is no different than how people have always populated their TBR lists: word of mouth, recommendations from friends/associates, online reviews/blogs, online reading communities, etc. And now sample chapters. Cream still rises. It's not like you're stranded in a jungle of books with no options other than "poke and hope" (any more than you've ever been, anyway).

And if you are in the habit of buying traditionally published books at complete and utter random... well then you're no stranger to the occasional piece of garbage anyway.

The idea that there's an endless morrass of indie books with absolutely no means of separating the wheat from the chaff is quite tired, and needs to be put to rest.

And hey... if you don't feel you should have to do even the slightest bit of research before trying an unknown author, then you still likely have enough traditionally vetted material to last you a lifetime anyway.

If it's "bad writing," it'll show up in the sample.
THIS, a million times this.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:58 PM   #55
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I find it amusing when people gnash their teeth over the "sheer amount of drivel" out there when it comes to self-published authors. As if there is no hope at all to find their way through to some gems. As if they have to navigate it at all.

Unless you're in the habit of blindly grabbing traditionally published books/authors on a whim, navigating the slushpile of indies is no different than how people have always populated their TBR lists: word of mouth, recommendations from friends/associates, online reviews/blogs, online reading communities, etc. And now sample chapters. Cream still rises. It's not like you're stranded in a jungle of books with no options other than "poke and hope" (any more than you've ever been, anyway).

And if you are in the habit of buying traditionally published books at complete and utter random... well then you're no stranger to the occasional piece of garbage anyway.

The idea that there's an endless morrass of indie books with absolutely no means of separating the wheat from the chaff is quite tired, and needs to be put to rest.

And hey... if you don't feel you should have to do even the slightest bit of research before trying an unknown author, then you still likely have enough traditionally vetted material to last you a lifetime anyway.

If it's "bad writing," it'll show up in the sample.
I have to agree. I read a lot of indie books and I have yet to read one that made me throw my Kindle down in disgust. One or two have been meh but when I buy a book from an indie like B.V. Larson, Dave Dalglish, Dan Worth, Joseph Robert Lewis, etc, I know I'm getting a quality read. I check their blogs, read samples, look at their various social media to see who their fans recommend; it's really not that hard or time consuming to find good indie books, frankly I've had worse luck with mainstream publisher's novels.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:06 PM   #56
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[QUOTE=CWatkinsNash;2438152]
I saw a writer proclaim that he saw no need to pay a cent during the self-publishing process for editing or anything else.
/QUOTE]

I've said things like that on occasion

I didn't use an editor until my third book. I got a bit of a shock when I saw all the wavy red lines all over it. But I learnt a lot from that, and the one after that had very few red lines after I went through it myself.

I still do my own covers and internal layout though.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:24 PM   #57
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I can understand that. I have friends from various parts of the UK who sometimes visit Nashville, and hilarity often ensues due to language differences. Especially if we've been drinking. I'm a horrible influence on them, I admit.
Let me set the scene for you

We are at the siege of Leningrad, the German army is advancing, the city is starving and amidst all the chaos, destruction and death, our hero emerges from the trenches in his underpants and garter belt


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I read a lot of indie books and I have yet to read one that made me throw my Kindle down in disgust. One or two have been meh [...] frankly I've had worse luck with mainstream publisher's novels.
I agree too I've only ended up with a few really, really bad indie books, some were very good.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:41 PM   #58
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You need some proper rest to put you in a proper state of mind so you can properly understand his proper writing on the topic of proper lady that knew her proper place, always her proper place, proper greetings and proper mannerism.




See, I can do it to. Maybe I should publish a book.
Of course you should. But not this noveltyish indy-way...
You want to be it all right and proper don't you?

@ christa: sometimes the people with nasty influence are the ones most worthy to be met.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:47 PM   #59
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I've said things like that on occasion

I didn't use an editor until my third book. I got a bit of a shock when I saw all the wavy red lines all over it. But I learnt a lot from that, and the one after that had very few red lines after I went through it myself.

I still do my own covers and internal layout though.
It wasn't you. I've seen you say similar things, but it always seemed to me there was a different mentality behind it. The individual I was referring to strikes me more as the type who read, "How Anyone Can Write an Ebook and Get Rich!" and believed it.

You've learned from it, and you already knew that most popular authors don't wake up every morning and fart out perfect prose - they have editors. I think a lot of people haven't figured that out yet.

Edited to add: I love your covers.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:16 PM   #60
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Bad writing isn't necessary limited to self publishing I am currently reading a book published in 1994 that is horrible. It was the author's first book so I am trying to push through it. It's a regency romance and it's in paperback. If it ever comes out in digital I can only hope the author's does some major revisions. I am normally against revisions when a book goes to digital but this book needs it bad!

Bad covers don't always mean bad books. Here's an Example of a book I read awhile back. The cover is horrible and misleading. The story turned out to be similar to a Harlequin Suspense and quite good. She needs to release the book herself and get a better cover.

Alot of backlist titles have poor covers but these books were previously published so you know to ignore them.

I can't stand bad writing. I will normally put down a book every time if the writing does not flow well.

This book here is an example of just that. I blame the editor. It's missing simple words that my brain has to insert. The scenes run together and the characters' action are usually forgotten or never described. One minute they are against the door so how did they get on the bed? It's never mention. They go to a restaurant to eat, order drinks have a very long conversation then just get up and leave without eating or paying. No mention of what happened to the meal. It's stuff like that will just drives me crazy! The second book does not have these issues.

Last edited by Blossom; 02-27-2013 at 03:20 PM.
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