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Old 02-24-2013, 04:07 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze View Post
I think we're supposed to be surprised that money works so specifically and effectively for anyone who has it, no matter how unconnected they might be. It's a question not of NYTBR being corrupt but of its fraud markers being bypassed.
What fraud markers?
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:07 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Sil_liS View Post
What fraud markers?
From the article:

Quote:
The Times’s methodology (which you can find at the bottom of this page) samples sales from a diverse range of retail outlets, a measure specifically intended to weed out books whose sales surge is a product of artificial demand. Books that benefited from bulk sales are supposed to have a dagger icon next to them to denote that fact. Yet when Hsieh’s book debuted on the list in 2009, it had no such symbol.
Kali Yuga: Either I'm misreading you or you're misreading me. It appears you're actually in agreement with me but are voicing your agreement in a tone which sounds polemical. Either that, or you're actually disagreeing with someone else and my solipsism is showing.

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Old 02-24-2013, 11:21 PM   #18
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Top of the NYT Bestseller List meant extra discounts at B&N and Amazon. That was the only reason I've ever cared about the thing.
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze View Post
From the article:
Quote:
The Times’s methodology (which you can find at the bottom of this page) samples sales from a diverse range of retail outlets, a measure specifically intended to weed out books whose sales surge is a product of artificial demand. Books that benefited from bulk sales are supposed to have a dagger icon next to them to denote that fact. Yet when Hsieh’s book debuted on the list in 2009, it had no such symbol.
I'm still unclear about the terminology. If the retail outlets are the stores that sell books to the general public, how do 'bulk sales' fit in?
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:48 AM   #20
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I'm still unclear about the terminology. If the retail outlets are the stores that sell books to the general public, how do 'bulk sales' fit in?
Presumably bulk sales would be a large number of sales from a small number of retailers, which was significantly out of whack with sales from all other retailers, and could not be explained by sales of a local author or other reason.
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:54 AM   #21
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Streamline Article

Has anyone posted a point by point layout of the facts and info presented in this article. Don't have time to read the whole thing.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:00 AM   #22
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Presumably bulk sales would be a large number of sales from a small number of retailers, which was significantly out of whack with sales from all other retailers, and could not be explained by sales of a local author or other reason.
Thanks!
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:55 PM   #23
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I had thought "bulk sales" were things like politically conservative organizations buying up a single lot (run) of authors such as Sarah Palin, to give as "premiums" to folks to entice them to become members (new names on mailing lists)?
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:19 AM   #24
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I believe that timing has a lot to do with position on polls.
If you can orchestrate the timing of purchases for a book or authors, it will drive their position on the charts up, which of course will further sales. The question is who besides the author has a reason to drive those positions up. Pretty simple answers usually.

It is a self seeding type thing.

Likewise the sales of a political book or author or even a politically sensitive book (like abortion, a ban on guns, and or course prejudice, labor, fiscal stuff, and politician) have even greater pressures added on by organizations who buy a lot of books at just the right time. Of course they get a deal from the publishers. (as they should)

Check your favorite or your least favorite political blog. See what they are selling.

I will finally say, less than half the books on the "best seller lists" would be there without these machinations. Maybe less than a quarter. Some would argue less than a tenth but I am not so critical.
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:50 AM   #25
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Thanks for helping, Murray Paul. People all around me have lost their jobs and I've been too busy to respond to anyone here in depth -- even on the semicolon thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by murraypaul View Post
Presumably bulk sales would be a large number of sales from a small number of retailers, which was significantly out of whack with sales from all other retailers, and could not be explained by sales of a local author or other reason.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:13 AM   #26
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One last thing:

Thanks to everyone for refraining from commenting on the word corrupt in this phrase: "It's a question not of NYTBR's being corrupt but of its fraud markers being bypassed."

I would argue that virtually all mainstream publications are corrupt to varying degrees, and I personally would neither single out nor ignore that aspect of the NYTBR. My point is that the fallibility of the NYT's Bestseller list is due not to inherent corruption but rather system-gaming which could apply to virtually every list at any level.

* * * *

We tend to malign a false consensus by attaching stereotypes of the kinds of people we assume must comprise it:

People whom the heckler feels are dangerously wrong must also be visually and socially apparent -- or so the stereotype implies. They must be people with unlikeable and/or threatening attributes.

Ergo academics = inbred intellectual bullies passing awards back and forth to one another; classical music fans = disingenuous tsk-tskers in whiskers and black turtlenecks who tend to brandish opera glasses or Herbert Tareytons* fitted into ludicrously elongated cigarette holders; genre fiction readers = white-eyed consumers with tentacled sucking mouths.

I won't even touch on the stereotypes favored by people on both sides of the political loyalty divider (as if all politics were Boolean). It's a divider which is nearly always arbitrary.

Suffice to bray this:

Every one of us is a closet Lilliputian.

When seeking out systemic ills, resorting to the stereotypes we associate with those ills is nearly always a mistake.

A thief can emerge from any group or stratum. The devil is in the distinctions between that individual and the people they might resemble. The sociocultural aspect of their existence is probably camouflage.

By extension, we ourselves are implicated by those same ills.

Our sociopolitical position doesn't matter. If we're willing to mischaracterize, stigmatize and demoralize people with antipodal ideas, then our de facto argument is for a culture in which debate is sacrificed to domination.

=================

* See this '50s Teryton ad campaign.

Last edited by Prestidigitweeze; 03-08-2013 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 03-16-2013, 02:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze View Post
One last thing:

Thanks to everyone for refraining from commenting on the word corrupt in this phrase: "It's a question not of NYTBR's being corrupt but of its fraud markers being bypassed."

I would argue that virtually all mainstream publications are corrupt to varying degrees, and I personally would neither single out nor ignore that aspect of the NYTBR. My point is that the fallibility of the NYT's Bestseller list is due not to inherent corruption but rather system-gaming which could apply to virtually every list at any level.

* * * *

We tend to malign a false consensus by attaching stereotypes of the kinds of people we assume must comprise it:

People whom the heckler feels are dangerously wrong must also be visually and socially apparent -- or so the stereotype implies. They must be people with unlikeable and/or threatening attributes.

Ergo academics = inbred intellectual bullies passing awards back and forth to one another; classical music fans = disingenuous tsk-tskers in whiskers and black turtlenecks who tend to brandish opera glasses or Herbert Tareytons* fitted into ludicrously elongated cigarette holders; genre fiction readers = white-eyed consumers with tentacled sucking mouths.

I won't even touch on the stereotypes favored by people on both sides of the political loyalty divider (as if all politics were Boolean). It's a divider which is nearly always arbitrary.

Suffice to bray this:

Every one of us is a closet Lilliputian.

When seeking out systemic ills, resorting to the stereotypes we associate with those ills is nearly always a mistake.

A thief can emerge from any group or stratum. The devil is in the distinctions between that individual and the people they might resemble. The sociocultural aspect of their existence is probably camouflage.

By extension, we ourselves are implicated by those same ills.

Our sociopolitical position doesn't matter. If we're willing to mischaracterize, stigmatize and demoralize people with antipodal ideas, then our de facto argument is for a culture in which debate is sacrificed to domination.

=================

* See this '50s Teryton ad campaign.
*****


1) Every Ethical Perspective is equally valid.

What I mean is - Ethics is just strategy.

You're honorable. That's great. It helps other people so it's an 'approved' ethical strategy.

Someone is dishonest. That's not great for everyone else. However, it might be good strategy.

Note: I'm not saying it's the right thing. Just that it might be valid strategy. Which means that until the loophole is fixed anyone who doesn't have a proper moral compass (whatever that means) will use it.


2) Every list is manipulated. Usually it's the store itself doing the manipulation. Then you have the little fish and the big fish (Publishers) doing their own manipulation on top of that.


3) You might think the List Keepers are ethical and the system is being manipulated but they too are biased in the very ways they set up lists. For a long time all the top book bestseller lists didn't include ebook sales.

Isn't that corrupt?
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