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Old 02-04-2013, 05:25 PM   #31
kyteflyer
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Originally Posted by derangedhermit View Post
My understanding is the ePub 2 spec does not allow external links. I will look at Marvin, thanks for the suggestion - but if it is iOnly, or iSpecific, I won't be using it.
Then wait til it comes to an Android device near you. It will, but only after the iPhone version has been done, I believe. Get ready by seeing what it can do, and will do at the website
http://marvinapp.com/
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:38 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Try asking the average person in the street about the square root of two. You'll probably get a response that's about as intelligent as that of the average chimpanzee.
Agree.

"The average person" is not smart enough with technology (*), not even in this day and age, to be using eBooks. If they even can use them without help (for example, buying on the Kindle, directly through the Kindle store), then at some point, they *will* hit the brick wall called DRM.

The average person will not understand why they cannot get the book they paid good money for on Amazon onto a Kobo reader, should they decide to switch. If they do understand that they have different formats and where smart enough to not buy a Kindle (as anything else uses ePUB), then they'll run into DRM some day; so even if they take care to use readers that can use the same format, it may still not work.

Als long as that sort of stuff is still true, then eBooks will never be simple. You know what simple is, and what every average computer user can do?

- Click book and pay.
- Press a big fat DOWNLOAD button to download the book.
- Connect your eReader to the computer, and drag/drop the file on top of the eReader icon.
- Profit! Read.

If you have a DRM-free ePUB, and an eReader that can handle ePub, it might actually work for some store / reader combinations. And it should work with any book from any store, and with any reader from any manufacturer. As long as that is not the case, it will not ever be simple.

I don't like a big part of the "digital reading experience" at all, to be honest. Too much jacking around with breaking DRM and converting formats to make sure that my very own, legally bought books stay readable in the (near) future. And even then, I don't even have certainty with regard to readability in 10, 20 or 50 years time (if I'm spared that long).

Why do I still read digitally nowadays?

- Lighted screens.
- Bigger font sizes.
- Custom font choices.
- Always good "print".
- Less weight, easy to carry 5 books if i want.
- Easy one handed reading.
- No cracking spines.
- No falling apart of a paperback during 3rd read.
- Free classics. Hundreds and thousands of them.

(*) Don't say that I'm discriminating or something; if you are reading this post, you are already not an average person anymore, and likely much more intelligent with regard to the usage of computers and technologies. I know many people in their 20's to 50's with good education and good jobs, who can not be described as being "dumb" or "stupid", but who are utterly inept at using any form of technology. If it has more than one button, it becomes difficult already, and if it involves a computer, their brain dies right when they sit down at it, and have to be told each individual action, like a child. And not only once: over and over again, because they just *can't get it*. If you teach them to copy/paste in Word, they will need to learn it all over again in Excel, and they can't understand that it also works with files, or entire folders. As long as eReading requires more actions than "download -> drop on reader", between any store and any brand of reader, it won't be ready for the big masses.

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Old 02-04-2013, 07:31 PM   #33
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I object to the premise "humans are the only species that is curious" - what bullsh*t.
Then why does my dog search and search for whatever it is that has peeked her interest at the moment. Also Cats......OMG, the most curious of all, they gotta investigate everything.

So, whoever said that, obviously has no pets, or sense

I will say however........that man is the only species that can kill at a distance.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:48 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Katsunami View Post
Agree.


(*) Don't say that I'm discriminating or something; if you are reading this post, you are already not an average person anymore, and likely much more intelligent with regard to the usage of computers and technologies. I know many people in their 20's to 50's with good education and good jobs, who can not be described as being "dumb" or "stupid", but who are utterly inept at using any form of technology. If it has more than one button, it becomes difficult already, and if it involves a computer, their brain dies right when they sit down at it, and have to be told each individual action, like a child. And not only once: over and over again, because they just *can't get it*. If you teach them to copy/paste in Word, they will need to learn it all over again in Excel, and they can't understand that it also works with files, or entire folders. As long as eReading requires more actions than "download -> drop on reader", between any store and any brand of reader, it won't be ready for the big masses.

I still can't get that clock on the VCR to stop blinking 12:00

A small percentage of people enjoy reading. I myself, enjoy nothing better (well almost nothing ) then curling up with a good story. I believe its getting to be a smaller and smaller percentage.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:59 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by rah68 View Post
I will say however........that man is the only species that can kill at a distance.
Have you seen chimp tribes throwing sticks and stones at each other?
We're primates; we do what primates do
We just do it to with "panache".
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:16 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by derangedhermit View Post
My understanding is the ePub 2 spec does not allow external links. I will look at Marvin, thanks for the suggestion - but if it is iOnly, or iSpecific, I won't be using it.
Thanks! I was looking for something to do tonight...I'll go read the spec....again.

I do know that it supports linking outside of the epub, whether or not it is in the spec. I just created a basic epub with an external link in Sigil and it worked fine. It passed Flightcrew and ePubcheck3, compiled in kindle previewer and ADE. The link worked in all of those. I would assume that if you are using a device/app that had browser support, it would work there as well.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:19 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by rah68 View Post
I still can't get that clock on the VCR to stop blinking 12:00
A Twelve o'clock flasher

Quote:
A small percentage of people enjoy reading. I myself, enjoy nothing better (well almost nothing ) then curling up with a good story. I believe its getting to be a smaller and smaller percentage.
I think it's because reading requires patience, and with long books, determination. Both are traits I'm seeing less and less, to be honest. Nowadays, a computer game is said to have "good value" when it has 10 hours of play time. You can finish that in one day. How long would a book be that you can read in 10 hours straight; 200 pages, for a casual reader? That's not a book, just a nice introduction

Try Baldur's Gate (which I've also mentioned in another thread). If you just play the main story arc, it'll take you about 50 hours. 25 if you are VERY fast (you know the game, and skipping much of the dialog, that is).

If you want to do everything that can be done, it'll take you 150 hours or more on your first playthrough.

Ever played Planescape Torment? If so, you'll know what I mean if I say: "You've just played a novel." If not, then get it at Gog.com and go play it. It's more like an interactive book than a game.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:48 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjtorres View Post
Have you seen chimp tribes throwing sticks and stones at each other?
We're primates; we do what primates do
We just do it to with "panache".
I knew someone would mention the primates. I did think of that before i posted.
I meant more like, shooting another human, on purpose, from, say, 100 yards. Or a plane dropping a bomb sort of "Panache"

Last edited by rah68; 02-04-2013 at 08:50 PM. Reason: cause i dont spel to guud
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:15 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Katsunami View Post
I think it's because reading requires patience, and with long books, determination. Both are traits I'm seeing less and less, to be honest. Nowadays, a computer game is said to have "good value" when it has 10 hours of play time. You can finish that in one day. How long would a book be that you can read in 10 hours straight; 200 pages, for a casual reader? That's not a book, just a nice introduction
200 pages is almost two hours' reading for me.

Quote:
Ever played Planescape Torment? If so, you'll know what I mean if I say: "You've just played a novel." If not, then get it at Gog.com and go play it. It's more like an interactive book than a game.
I've enjoyed some choose-your-own-adventure books but they're definitely a different kind of reading from linear reading. Better jump-around-between-sections technology is not the same kind of change or improvement as more accessible fonts (size change; ability to swap between serif or sans) or the ability to carry hundreds of books at once.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:32 PM   #40
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I said "casual reader", not "speed reading monster"

I think you've got a bit of a wrong idea about Plaescape Torment. It's often seen as having the best story in any game ever. If this game had been a book (if that would be possible, capturing all the different paths you can take through the story, and all the different endings), then it would / should have been a fantasy classic as big as LotR.

I think it would have been a classic even if they'd created a novel only describing one path, toward the most epic ending Planescape Torment contains over 800.000 words of dialog

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Old 02-04-2013, 09:33 PM   #41
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I don't think I want novels to be "interactive" unless it's just a map or a plan (which was probably included in printed books), otherwise they just become poor imitations of movies or computer games. Concentrate on the writing! But for text books the field could be wide open - built in exercises, visual content with demonstrations of experiments, artwork, photos. The possibilities are endless and editors or this type of book really need to think outside the square. At the moment I haven't seen much that grabs me.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:54 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsunami View Post
Agree.

"The average person" is not smart enough with technology (*), not even in this day and age, to be using eBooks. If they even can use them without help (for example, buying on the Kindle, directly through the Kindle store), then at some point, they *will* hit the brick wall called DRM.

The average person will not understand why they cannot get the book they paid good money for on Amazon onto a Kobo reader, should they decide to switch. If they do understand that they have different formats and where smart enough to not buy a Kindle (as anything else uses ePUB), then they'll run into DRM some day; so even if they take care to use readers that can use the same format, it may still not work.

Als long as that sort of stuff is still true, then eBooks will never be simple. You know what simple is, and what every average computer user can do?

- Click book and pay.
- Press a big fat DOWNLOAD button to download the book.
- Connect your eReader to the computer, and drag/drop the file on top of the eReader icon.
- Profit! Read.

If you have a DRM-free ePUB, and an eReader that can handle ePub, it might actually work for some store / reader combinations. And it should work with any book from any store, and with any reader from any manufacturer. As long as that is not the case, it will not ever be simple.

I don't like a big part of the "digital reading experience" at all, to be honest. Too much jacking around with breaking DRM and converting formats to make sure that my very own, legally bought books stay readable in the (near) future. And even then, I don't even have certainty with regard to readability in 10, 20 or 50 years time (if I'm spared that long).

Why do I still read digitally nowadays?

- Lighted screens.
- Bigger font sizes.
- Custom font choices.
- Always good "print".
- Less weight, easy to carry 5 books if i want.
- Easy one handed reading.
- No cracking spines.
- No falling apart of a paperback during 3rd read.
- Free classics. Hundreds and thousands of them.

(*) Don't say that I'm discriminating or something; if you are reading this post, you are already not an average person anymore, and likely much more intelligent with regard to the usage of computers and technologies. I know many people in their 20's to 50's with good education and good jobs, who can not be described as being "dumb" or "stupid", but who are utterly inept at using any form of technology. If it has more than one button, it becomes difficult already, and if it involves a computer, their brain dies right when they sit down at it, and have to be told each individual action, like a child. And not only once: over and over again, because they just *can't get it*. If you teach them to copy/paste in Word, they will need to learn it all over again in Excel, and they can't understand that it also works with files, or entire folders. As long as eReading requires more actions than "download -> drop on reader", between any store and any brand of reader, it won't be ready for the big masses.
I think you are conflating intelligence with investment.

The so-called average person is more than intelligent to figure out how to do almost anything, provided they are willing to set their mind to it. The problem is that many simply do not care enough to exert the mental effort required. Even those who seem completely unable to "get it," are not stupid; they simply do not care enough to learn how computers work (fear may also be a factor).
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:30 PM   #43
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As I said, most of those people are not stupid. Some of them actually come to me because they want to learn some of this stuff, so not wanting to expend the mental effort is not (always) the problem. Some really just cannot see the patterns.

Often I see people gleefully hit CTRL-A to select all text in a text document, but then they struggle to get all files selected in a folder. Most of them just never think "Could it be the same as in Word?" and hit CTRL-A.

If I show you how to copy/paste in Notepad, then show you in Word and finally show you that it works between Notepad and Word too, then you shouldn't call me the next day, with the question "How do I copy and paste in Excel?". If your answer to my counter question "Did you succeed doing it in Word or Notepad?" is "Yes", then in my book, you'll be filed under the "People who don't get it" category.

Many people who find computers and software difficult, only use it by running through lists of actions, without actually understanding the concept or pattern of what they are doing. Therefore, to them, copy/paste in Word is different than copy/paste in another program, or when copy/pasting files.

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Old 02-05-2013, 03:40 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by CazMar View Post
I don't think I want novels to be "interactive" unless it's just a map or a plan (which was probably included in printed books), otherwise they just become poor imitations of movies or computer games. Concentrate on the writing! But for text books the field could be wide open - built in exercises, visual content with demonstrations of experiments, artwork, photos. The possibilities are endless and editors or this type of book really need to think outside the square. At the moment I haven't seen much that grabs me.
I think I agree very much with this. With narrative stories, the content (the author's output) will need to remain the overwhelming focus.

For textbooks, repair manuals, and other similar works, then a lot more changes may be beneficial and expected.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:43 AM   #45
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Reading has changed what do you think the internet is. It is all the knowledge that people were getting from books etc has moved to electronic devices. You can search for words in thousands of books at once instead of going thru a book page by page. Stories have moved from being passive to active. Take a look at redit people tell their real life stories others reply to help and become part of the story.
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