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Old 03-15-2014, 03:08 AM   #1
u238110
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Do e-reader formats not have any record of the page numbers?

I don't have much experience with e-readers. I use an old Kindle -- I think the first one -- and I've never seen a feature that allows me to see what page I would be on if I wasn't using an e-reader format. Never seen anything in Mobi Pocket Reader either.
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Old 03-15-2014, 03:58 AM   #2
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I don't think the Kindle 1 had it (maybe started with the Kindle 2??), but the later Kindle's have support for actual page numbers that match up to the page numbers in a specific paper edition of a book. It's not available on all books as some books are digital only and others just don't have them because Amazon or the publisher haven't mapped the pages out. If a book has them it's description on the Amazon website will usually have a line that says "Page Numbers Source ISBN:"

Some ePub based readers use "page numbers" (as opposed to locations on the Kindle), but in general they don't relate to any paper edition of a book. IIRC the Nook does do "real" page numbers on some books, but I'm not sure.

Some other ePub devices use page numbers that equate to one screens worth of text, therefore the number of "pages" in a book changes any time you adjust font size, margins or line spacing.
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Old 03-15-2014, 04:31 AM   #3
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Both ePub and Kindle formats allow correspondence with the page numbers of a printed edition of a book.
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Old 03-15-2014, 05:34 AM   #4
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In ADE there is a page-map.xml file that can be created, to map physical page numbers to EPUB page numbers:

http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/Page-map#Page-map

If I recall correctly, an EPUB with a valid page-map.xml file can also be fed into KindleGen to generate a MOBI which has the physical pages mapped as well.

Overall, it is a pain to create, and many publishers don't deal with it. (I personally don't do it in my conversions).

Opinion: Page numbers should go the way of the dodo.

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 03-15-2014 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 03-15-2014, 05:57 AM   #5
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Thanks. How do the page numbers manifest? I imagine I couldn't see them on a Kindle 1, but what about a PC reader?
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Old 03-16-2014, 11:11 PM   #6
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In addition to Page-map there is also PageList which is part of the NCX. Kindlegen will read either of those to generate the APNX.
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Old 03-16-2014, 11:13 PM   #7
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Can you guys give me an idea how exactly this data appears? Because I'm tempted to think that the most compatible option (apparent to readers) would be to simply leave the page numbers that are there from the scan inside the text.
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Old 03-16-2014, 11:25 PM   #8
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Inside the text would look horrible and mes up the flow of the text...

Compatible Kindles (and I know the Keyboard and onward supports it) will show the page numbers when you open up the menubar. The menubar pops up on top, and an expanded bar pops up on the bottom showing location, page numbers, percent, and calculated Time To Read (with the right firmware) all together. IIRC seeing a friend's Nook, it will show up on the bottom of the screen at all times. ADE shows on the bottom of the window at all times.

At least on the Kindle, I believe the page number goes by whatever page the first text currently on the screen is from.
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Old 03-16-2014, 11:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschwartz View Post
Inside the text would look horrible and mes up the flow of the text...
No, it's just little numbers.

Based on the rest of your post, it seems like for compatibility, permanent page numbers are the best option.
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Old 03-16-2014, 11:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AIDM2 View Post
No, it's just little numbers.
But it will come in the middle of paragraphs and be represented as an ugly gap in the middle of the text flow.

Page numbers are really only needed for legacy compatibility with referencing the print edition.

If the book has multiple print editions, like the public-domain stuff that Tex2002ans does (right?) then there really is no way to match multiple print editions. (Maybe that's why you dislike them so much?) But even without that, it isn't really useful. I have basically never looked at the page numbers in any of my ebooks, because what do I need it for anyway? To tell how far I've gotten? I have a percentage indicator as well as a calculation of how long it will take to finish (choice of chapter or whole book) at my current reading rate.
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Old 03-16-2014, 11:53 PM   #11
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Sharing references with others? Being able to just hop on a forum and say "on page 264..."
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Old 03-17-2014, 12:01 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AIDM2 View Post
Sharing references with others? Being able to just hop on a forum and say "on page 264..."
It doesn't happen often enough to be bothersome to tap open the menu overlay, and definitely not enough to mess up the page flow. I would just go with chapters anyway, though.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AIDM2 View Post
Sharing references with others? Being able to just hop on a forum and say "on page 264..."
That doesn't work with paper books either, unless there is only a single sanctioned edition and printing.

Suppose I want to discuss with you a passage that appears on "page 264" of "The Three Musketeers". That's pretty useless, because I have no idea which edition/translation you are using, and I may be using a French or Spanish version myself. It would be much better to say: "in the 5th paragraph of chapter XXIII" or something like that.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AIDM2 View Post
Can you guys give me an idea how exactly this data appears?
I assume it looks something along these lines in ADE:

http://beranger.org/2013/05/13/page-...omplex-than-i/

(I thought I had a few books with a page-map.xml included, now of course I can't find them).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIDM2 View Post
Because I'm tempted to think that the most compatible option (apparent to readers) would be to simply leave the page numbers that are there from the scan inside the text.
I agree completely with eschwartz. Do not do this. I have seen a few books that do this, and they look BAD (didn't the early Project Gutenberg books have this?). It definitely jars you out of the reading experience, because it is SMACK DAB in the middle of text (unlike in a physical book, where page numbers are shoved out of the way in the corners).
  • What happens when a blockquote/paragraph splits across pages?
  • How do you deal with things like Footnotes?? Are you going to add footnotes at the bottom of each "page"??
  • How about footnotes that overflow to the next page? Are you going to split those into pieces?

Page numbers are used in physical books because (well, there are actual pages), and it is impossible to SEARCH.

In a digital version, it is easy to locate exactly where the author said something. (Also a reason why Indexes don't make too much sense in an ebook either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschwartz View Post
If the book has multiple print editions, like the public-domain stuff that Tex2002ans does (right?) then there really is no way to match multiple print editions. (Maybe that's why you dislike them so much?)
Nearly everything I work on is public domain and/or CC3.0. We deal in non-fiction economics/history books. Tons of people have referenced our stuff with/without page numbers.

Multiple editions of a book doesn't help, although as Jellby stated, that is a downfall of referencing physical books as well.

Also, what happens if I release a digital PDF in multiple formats (one for iPads, one for cell phones, one for PC reading, one for Kindle Fires, etc. etc.)? The page numbers there will also get all messed up, even if it is the same exact book.

And perhaps it is just because I love ebooks and despise physical books now.... page numbers just make me foam at the mouth! They are a relic of the physical age and must be destroyed!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIDM2 View Post
Sharing references with others? Being able to just hop on a forum and say "on page 264..."
Here are a few articles on ebook citation:

https://chronicle.com/article/E-Book...s-Make/126246/
http://askus.library.wwu.edu/a.php?qid=116953
http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/20...an-e-book.html
http://www.noodletools.com/helpdesk/...article&id=206

What happens currently when you want to reference a website? You don't say:

Quote:
"On page 15 of "Sample Article" by John Smith, he says: [...]".
You just copy/paste out of the article, and point a link to the article/Archive.org/B&N/Author's Site/forum topic and away you go.

For informal stuff like forums? There is just zero need to reference page numbers. Book + Chapter + (paragraph if you want to get in depth) should be more than enough accuracy.

Whenever I personally debate, I just copy/paste entire paragraphs right out of the EPUB (and reference the chapter/subchapter it was located in). No need for page numbers. Then I link directly to the PDF/EPUB (in our case, all books are available on the site for free in both versions).

If you wanted to be formal (as in, writing a dissertation, writing a report for school), then perhaps you MAY want to get the physical page number equivalent. Although as ebooks get more and more popular, the referencing rules are going to change on how to deal with digital books... I assume it will become more accepted to toss pages out in formal/academic literature as well.

Side Note: There was this article posted, "Why E-books Are Banned in My Digital Journalism Class" by Meredith Broussard:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...ooks-heres-why

On page 15 , she says:

Quote:
Let’s say that you were reading a book for class, and you remember seeing something important in a paragraph that you sort of remember was on a page that also had a picture of a fish. You flip through the book, and you see the page, but it’s not a picture of a fish, it’s a picture of a whale. But you found the passage, and you read it again, and you remember it this time. [...]
This is actually why I hold ebooks as vastly superior. Too many times I read a book, and had to write an essay, and I recall "I remember it being near her baking a cake", and it is impossible to find "cake", or that section ever again. With an ebook, I can just search for every single reference to the word "cake", in about one second. Then I can COPY/PASTE (not have to retype out of the physical book word-for-word) and get on with my life.

Other Side Note: I actually found THREE WORDS as enough for me to find any position in a book. When I write errors down on a piece of paper next to my bed, I only mark down the three words before/after the mistake. I can easily find that location later through search.

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 03-17-2014 at 04:49 AM.
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Old 03-18-2014, 01:10 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post
Nearly everything I work on is public domain and/or CC3.0. We deal in non-fiction economics/history books. Tons of people have referenced our stuff with/without page numbers.
Thought I remembered something like that.

Thanks for the links, I didn't know either that they agreed on an ebook-citation method.

Quote:
Side Note: There was this article posted, "Why E-books Are Banned in My Digital Journalism Class" by Meredith Broussard:

On page 15 , she says:

Quote:
Let’s say that you were reading a book for class, and you remember seeing something important in a paragraph that you sort of remember was on a page that also had a picture of a fish. You flip through the book, and you see the page, but it’s not a picture of a fish, it’s a picture of a whale. But you found the passage, and you read it again, and you remember it this time. [...]
This is actually why I hold ebooks as vastly superior. Too many times I read a book, and had to write an essay, and I recall "I remember it being near her baking a cake", and it is impossible to find "cake", or that section ever again. With an ebook, I can just search for every single reference to the word "cake", in about one second. Then I can COPY/PASTE (not have to retype out of the physical book word-for-word) and get on with my life.
I have often thought the same, (especially since so many books actually do have *Real Page Numbers, at least give the restricted option) but you can't help everybody.

* From the article:
Quote:
What page is that on? My Kindle has different pages, so I can’t find the passage we’re talking about.
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