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Old 01-14-2013, 11:03 PM   #61
taustin
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Do you have a reference for that? Because I *hate* 3D movies - they make me quite sick to my stomach from the eyestrain.
Try Googling for

3d movies ticket sales down

and you'll find quite a few directly relevant results.

I don't especially mind the 3D effect, though it isn't remotely 3D[1], but I strongly object to the 30%+ increase in price for . . . pretty much nothing (which is, really, the whole point, to raise prices).

[1]What it looks like to me is two or three 2D layers put on top of each other, probably because that's what it generally is. I'm sure there are exceptions, which are designed as 3D to begin with, like Avatar, but I haven't seen any.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:32 AM   #62
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That's no different than a library or house burning down. That's not something that is lost because of moving from a paper book to an ebook.

So no, it's not obvious. If you want to take that tact then it's MUCH MUCH easier to backup because of your 'concern'

Yes you need a display of some type to see it, but that's simply a difference, not a loss.
You can't read pbooks in the dark, eh?
You miss the point. The fragility is inherent in the media. Your house may burn down, but that is not likely. It's very likely that millions of books will become unreadable when a tech change or catastrophe renders a digital format obsolete.
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:44 AM   #63
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No, I don't miss the point at all.

Take a longer view, languages become obsolete.
Books crumble to dust.

I have music that has gone through multiple format shifts and still exists. And yes I can still listen to it any time I please on any device.

It is not something lost, it is something different.

Last edited by kennyc; 01-15-2013 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:42 AM   #64
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1. I absolutely OWN the ebooks I purchase. I strip drm and reformat and copy them as I want for personal use. I hope/expect we will eventually lose the stupid drm but that remains for the future. Not a loss.

2. Stores and companies are tracking everything you do and by and browse and surf. Just because it's an ebook makes no difference. No change

Paper is really only a limited purpose content delivery mechanism as well. Before paper and mass printing we had messengers and wandering minstrels.
1. You absolutely stole the ebooks you purchased. Stripping DRM is illegal, as defined by the courts and copyright law. Now I hate DRM, but my power as a consumer is to not purchase things I don't like, or to purchase them because what I do like is better than what I don't. You don't suddenly own something because you've stolen it.

2. I can pay cash in a store, and they have no idea what I bought. Nor do they know what I browsed. Nor do they know if I read it or gave it to someone else, how long I took, etc. Amazon isn't the only one doing this. Search on Kobo's Reading Life.

And yes, paper is a limited technology. But it's one we know. We know the drawbacks and the benefits. It, too, took something away - our ability to remember. Before books, people could remember speeches word-for-word because they had to. I think it was a fair exchange, but it's important to recognize that every technology takes away as well as gives. Will eBooks be a fair exchange? Time will tell.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:01 AM   #65
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1. You absolutely stole the ebooks you purchased. Stripping DRM is illegal, as defined by the courts and copyright law. Now I hate DRM, but my power as a consumer is to not purchase things I don't like, or to purchase them because what I do like is better than what I don't. You don't suddenly own something because you've stolen it.

2. I can pay cash in a store, and they have no idea what I bought. Nor do they know what I browsed. Nor do they know if I read it or gave it to someone else, how long I took, etc. Amazon isn't the only one doing this. Search on Kobo's Reading Life.

And yes, paper is a limited technology. But it's one we know. We know the drawbacks and the benefits. It, too, took something away - our ability to remember. Before books, people could remember speeches word-for-word because they had to. I think it was a fair exchange, but it's important to recognize that every technology takes away as well as gives. Will eBooks be a fair exchange? Time will tell.
You are wrong.

We are talking about 'what is lost' not your personal behavior. My points are applicable to the technology and the society as a whole.

Almost anyone using ebooks is also aware of the drm issue because they have been exposed to it from music, video and games. The personal use laws apply regardless of whether you believe it or not. NO I DID NOT STEAL ANYTHING. I legally acquired every ebook I own and by my rights have used them as I see fit. You need to change your understanding of what an ebook is, you seem very confused.

I don't give a sh*t if you pay cash or not, the retailer still knows what you bought, where you bought it, when you bought it, how much you paid for it, and even more.

Ah the good ol' let's not change because we are familiar and comfortable with what we have. Why are you even here I wonder?
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:22 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Sregener View Post
1. You absolutely stole the ebooks you purchased. Stripping DRM is illegal, as defined by the courts and copyright law. Now I hate DRM, but my power as a consumer is to not purchase things I don't like, or to purchase them because what I do like is better than what I don't. You don't suddenly own something because you've stolen it.
Show where the courts have defined anything. To the best of my knowledge DRM stripping has never been challenged in court one way or the other.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:15 AM   #67
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1. You absolutely stole the ebooks you purchased. Stripping DRM is illegal, as defined by the courts and copyright law. Now I hate DRM, but my power as a consumer is to not purchase things I don't like, or to purchase them because what I do like is better than what I don't. You don't suddenly own something because you've stolen it.

If you paid for a book, you haven't stolen anything by stripping the DRM. Even if it is ruled illegal, it's still not theft. If I strip DRM and don't distribute the book there's nothing that could be called theft. I have the book, the author has the money. If I have a book for one reader, and switch to a different device and strip the DRM, I have taken nothing away from the author. The author still has the money, and I have the book that I have paid for.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:53 AM   #68
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I don't give a sh*t if you pay cash or not, the retailer still knows what you bought, where you bought it, when you bought it, how much you paid for it, and even more.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but this I don't really get. If I grab a pbook in a B&M store and pay for it with cash, how does the store know more than that 'some unknown person bought a copy of said book'? They have no idea that it was me, unless I start filling out questionnaires or getting customer discount cards or whatnot and give them that info (which, of course is exactly why they do offer such things )
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:02 PM   #69
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I am lucky I suppose. In Canada of course we have "Chapters" ie northern B&N. Certainly when they opened there were a few small independants that shut down, but their were a few that toughed it out and thrived. So I still by hard cover and paperback on a regular basis. Sure I could go to Chapters or Costco but I make the choice to support a local merchant.
As an added benefit they bring in authors for lecture series. I have met Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman, Charles deLint, Robert Jordan, the list goes on and on.
I don't see Amazon hosting authors in my home town any time soon.
So for now I buy my books the old fashioned way and hope that the small independants will find a way to deal with the digital age. perhaps selling ebooks from an instore system or having a web vendor set up. (You listening Bolens? Munros? stay in business dang it)
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:26 PM   #70
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If you paid for a book, you haven't stolen anything by stripping the DRM. Even if it is ruled illegal, it's still not theft. If I strip DRM and don't distribute the book there's nothing that could be called theft. I have the book, the author has the money. If I have a book for one reader, and switch to a different device and strip the DRM, I have taken nothing away from the author. The author still has the money, and I have the book that I have paid for.
Well said.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:53 PM   #71
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Several years ago, I saw Terry Pratchett at a science fiction convention. At the time, I didn't know Discworld from Ringworld. I picked up one of his books, and now I own all of his Discworld books. So, I think there will be other venues were authors go to promote their books even if the big box bookstores go under. Independent stores could also host authors.

Even if bookstores in general eventually go under, authors will still want to promote their books. The thing about having the paper book right there is to get them to try it right away rather than wandering off to think about it, because they might forget about it.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:59 PM   #72
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1. You absolutely stole the ebooks you purchased.
How so? Doesn't "stealing" involve (1) taking something away from someone without their consent and (2) giving to someone who doesn't have the right to possess it? Neither of those applies here. The author got paid; the buyer has a book; there's the potential that a law was broken, but "theft" is not the crime in question.

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Stripping DRM is illegal, as defined by the courts and copyright law.
No, distributing tools that remove DRM is illegal. Stripping the DRM is against some stores' ToS, but it's not against the law. (In the US. Other countries may have different laws.) A store might cut off a buyer's account for stripping the DRM, but there's no grounds for prosecution, neither civil nor criminal.

Quote:
Now I hate DRM, but my power as a consumer is to not purchase things I don't like,
I don't buy DRM. I don't download free things with DRM. But that's because I've chosen not to support DRM-based models, not because I think there's anything illegal or unethical about removing it.

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You don't suddenly own something because you've stolen it.
Stolen it from whom? Himself?

He buys a book. He changes his computer settings and does some file processing so that different programs can open the book. Where's the theft?
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:59 PM   #73
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How so? Doesn't "stealing" involve (1) taking something away from someone without their consent and (2) giving to someone who doesn't have the right to possess it? Neither of those applies here. The author got paid; the buyer has a book; there's the potential that a law was broken, but "theft" is not the crime in question.

Stolen it from whom? Himself?

He buys a book. He changes his computer settings and does some file processing so that different programs can open the book. Where's the theft?
It would pay to educate yourselves about copyright law. It was established law in the 1980s that making a backup copy of a music cassette you purchased was illegal - in effect, if you wore out the tape you bought, you were legally obligated to buy a second copy of it, and making a "backup" copy for yourself was a violation of copyright. And making a cassette copy of a vinyl album was also against the law, because you changed the format of the copyrighted work - it was no longer on the media type you purchased.

Essentially, copyright law states that the content provider/creator (author/distributor/seller) can set the terms and conditions under which their intellectual property can be used. When you violate those terms and conditions, you have usurped the rights of the content creator. In effect, you are using the copyrighted work in a way other than that intended by the creator. If you check the contract you digitally sign by clicking "I agree to the Terms and Conditions" on a web site, among the things you agree to is to not remove the DRM from the file. Once you do so, you have violated the contract. Perhaps this is not a criminal offense, but it is at least a civil one. Buying licenses to ebooks with the intent to remove the DRM is essentially fraud, and that is actionable in a court of law, even if you have no intent to distribute.

When you buy a book from Amazon or Kobo or Nook, you are not buying the book in the traditional sense. You are purchasing a conditional-use license to the eBook. It is, in essence, not treated as a book but as software. Included in that license is the right for them to remove the copyrighted file from your device if, at some future date, it is determined that they did not have the legal right to sell it to you in the first place. When you remove DRM and read it on a non-approved device, you are taking their ability to do this out of their hands, which is part of why they prohibit it in the first place.

Some ask what I'm doing here. I owned a Kobo Wifi reader for a while, and I now own an Amazon Kindle and a few tablets with various ereading applications installed. But I am not an enthused convert that believes that eBooks are superior to the paper versions in every way, nor am I completely comfortable with what we are giving up when we buy licenses to digital books.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:06 PM   #74
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Again you are simply wrong. Copyright and publishing are in flux. You THINK you know what you are talking about but it is clear you don't. You have opinions and not very well informed ones as best I can tell.

Some didn't ask, I did.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:08 PM   #75
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How so? Doesn't "stealing" involve (1) taking something away from someone without their consent and (2) giving to someone who doesn't have the right to possess it? Neither of those applies here. The author got paid; the buyer has a book; there's the potential that a law was broken, but "theft" is not the crime in question.
My arguments are not intended to be a defense of copyright law. My arguments are that under current copyright law, it is deemed theft to modify an eBook without the written consent of the publisher and/or author. You do, of course, have a letter from the publisher or author that gives you permission to strip the DRM from their work, right? eBooks are not books, they are legally considered software, and as such, are not governed by the common-sense laws applicable to books. When you have a copyrighted work that has been modified without the permission of the content creator, you do not have the right to possess it. You don't have to transfer it to someone else in order for it to be stolen. Just using it in a way that is not permitted is enough.

Am I the only one who sees the problems inherent in turning books into software? The copyright laws for software have been horrible for end users, and it hasn't gotten better with time. The days of draconian controls of eReaders and eBooks is not far off, especially since so many of you seem to think you are perfectly in the right when you strip DRM.

Let me reiterate: I hate DRM. It is not the only potential problem with eBooks as a technology, but it is one problem, and a big one.
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