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Old 12-22-2012, 09:38 AM   #211
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And... I have a bunch of new (and old) bugs to report. I'm going through a book that is getting a lot of annotations.

The unstable selection thumbs bug is even worse. This is where moving the right thumb sometimes causes the left thumb to move. And vice versa. This problem has gotten worse it two ways: it takes less effort to destablise the thumbs, and it now sometimes selects huge chunks of the screen without the thumbs being displayed. This bug is now at least three versions old.

The selection still doesn't let you end a selection on the last character of a paragraph (which is usually a full stop (or a period)). This bug is so old that Fred Flintstone was getting it on his Kobo Slab (the prehistoric tablet).

And a new bug: when selecting a single word for a dictionary lookup, sometimes huge sections of the screen are selected (just like in the unstable selection thumbs bug) and the dictionary box pops up with the entire selection in it, and noted as doesn't exist in the dictionary.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:49 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Mrs_Often View Post
I think it is strange that Kobo decided on a default of 2 or 3. Using widows and orphans on an ereader is useless, as murg mildly suggested a few posts back. Actually, not just useless but confusing and annoying.
I'm not sure I agree with this. When I read on the computer (web page, document or using the calibre view), I move the text a lot more than is really needed. I don't just scroll when I get to the end, I tend to move the scroll bar to keep full paragraphs on the screen. In effect, I am manually managing the orphans and widows to force the paragraph to stay together. This makes it easier to read and take in the paragraph. As a lot of electronic text is formatted with space between each paragraph, this is an easy way to read. It means I can easily take in each paragraph. [To the other David: I really wanted to say "grok each paragraph". ]

Having said that, I do change the styles of my epubs to make the page look like a paperback page. That is what I am used to when reading novels and the gap between the paragraphs wastes to much space. I set the widows and orphans to zero, but I'm not sure if that is the right thing for me.
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More importantly, I don't think this is the only 'problem' that's going on. After I read this information a while back in a different thread I re-coverted all my epubs to include widow and orphan values of 0. This helped a lot (but did not completely get rid of slightly premature page breaks).
I see that as well. It is usually about a lines worth of space. When I look at the page it happens on, there is usually some formatting difference in the text. Chapter headings and things like a text in a superscript somewhere on the screen mean that a line takes a little more height than the other lines. The space left looks to be about a lines worth but I think any letters with tails would lose part of them.
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BUT. There is a bug of some kind that has been previously mentioned only a few times, where paragraphs that are longer than a page (or very long, I don't know the cutoff) always start on a new page. This meant that the book I was reading at the time (a Stephen King I think, with veeeerrry long paragraphs) frequently stopped only a couple of lines into a page, making me wonder if the chapter had already finished. But no, the next paragraph was just put onto the next page.

Now, I cannot remember what firmware this was (not more than 2 version back, maybe just one), but it was definitely not a widow/orphan thing.
I knew I forgot to mention something. There is a thread here discussing this problem. And you are right, it happens when the paragraph is longer than what will fit on a screen. As far as I know, it is new with 2.3.1
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:21 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by davidfor View Post
I knew I forgot to mention something. There is a thread here discussing this problem. And you are right, it happens when the paragraph is longer than what will fit on a screen. As far as I know, it is new with 2.3.1
Not new with 2.3.1. I am getting it on 2.1.5. This is a retail book where I stripped it down to bare bones CSS, with each paragraph having a 0 top/bottom margin. I've had 2 instances where a paragraph was a "page" or just over a page long. The previous paragraph had just under half a page of blank space after it because those long paragraphs were forced to start on the next "page". I have widows/orphans set to 0 as well. I actually went back into the code with Sigil to see what the heck I missed and both paragraphs were exactly the same as the ones before and after them, no special formatting.

Last edited by Danger; 12-22-2012 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:55 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by murg View Post
The 2 and 3 values are the standard CSS defaults for these values.
Well if that's true, how come this widow/orphan thing didn't show up until --uhm-- after 2.0.0 (just guessing)? Something somewhere changed in a Kobo firmware after which these gaps at the bottom of the page started to appear.

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Originally Posted by davidfor View Post
I see that as well. It is usually about a lines worth of space. When I look at the page it happens on, there is usually some formatting difference in the text. Chapter headings and things like a text in a superscript somewhere on the screen mean that a line takes a little more height than the other lines. The space left looks to be about a lines worth but I think any letters with tails would lose part of them.
Mmm. I'll have to start paying more attention. I'm not sure I've noticed this... but I do agree it sounds like the (only?) explanation.

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I knew I forgot to mention something. There is a thread here discussing this problem. And you are right, it happens when the paragraph is longer than what will fit on a screen. As far as I know, it is new with 2.3.1
Definitely before 2.3.1, as I'm still on 2.1.5 (scared of not having a home and back link), and I think it was even before 2.1.5, but I'm not sure about that.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:28 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Mrs_Often View Post
Well if that's true, how come this widow/orphan thing didn't show up until --uhm-- after 2.0.0 (just guessing)? Something somewhere changed in a Kobo firmware after which these gaps at the bottom of the page started to appear.
I don't now. Maybe Kobo fixed a bug where they were not following the default rules and using 0 as the default.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:47 PM   #216
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My wi-fi update still continue to download and install some software, but my version says 2.1.5 and nothing looks different; I still have multiple shelves. This has happened on 5 successive updates now.

Not sure what's going on with that.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:54 PM   #217
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My wi-fi update still continue to download and install some software, but my version says 2.1.5 and nothing looks different; I still have multiple shelves. This has happened on 5 successive updates now.

Not sure what's going on with that.
Sounds if if it keeps trying to update the firmware and failing. Maybe a factory reset to square one and retry from that.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:09 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by davidfor View Post
I've had a look at the database that Lynx-Lynx sent me. Thanks for that, and my apologies for the mistake in the first message.

A little explanation first.

The reference stored for the reading position and bookmarks are made up of several parts:

- A reference to the chapter
- A reference to the file the position is in
- A point in that file

As a lot of epubs a built with one chapter per file, the first two parts usually look like they are repeating some information, but they are serving different purposes.

The point in the file is a series of number separated by slashes and colons. I'm not completely sure what the numbers mean, but it looks like they are counters for walking the HTML/XML tree. If I am right, it is a reference to the end of the first paragraph on the screen.

So, using this information, the reader application can work out where the reader is up to and where to put bookmarks. Looking at the database Lynx-Lynx supplied, the current reading position and the bookmark for the page are identical. Same chapter reference, same file and same point. Looking at my database, it is the same.

What does this tell me? Not much. If they were different, it would tell me that the calculation for the two types of position was handled in different ways. Then I might have been able to see where the two points actually were in the book and then on the screen. It looks like the code for positioning the bookmark is different from the code for getting to the last reading position and the latter is wrong. My guess would be the code is that an index isn't being incremented at the right place or someone is counting from zero instead of 1. But this doesn't tell me why it works for some people and not for others.
David did you only look at the code, or were you able to download the book and replicate the issue?

Also, the second book, the non-fiction, has issues with trying to get the notes to function so that they actually take you to the note at the back of the book and then back again to the reading point.

Also the annotations and highlighting, were saving and then disappearing.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:27 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx View Post
Also, the second book, the non-fiction, has issues with trying to get the notes to function so that they actually take you to the note at the back of the book and then back again to the reading point.
I've found quite a few books where footnotes (if that is what you are referring to) are not properly setup. The footnote forward link should point to the footnote while the footnote should have a reverse link back to the footnote forward link location. I've seen books where the forward link simply points to the start of the appendix where the footnotes are stored with no reverse link defined, books where the forward and reverse links are static links which no longer work after changes were made unless you feel up to locating and manually editing them and the ones where the footnote markers have no links though they will be underlined to make them look like a link.

If the ebook is in epub format and not DRMed, you can use Sigil to examine the links. Though I have to warn you that looking at the source for many ebooks may be hard on your stomach. Very often, the first thought that comes to mind is that your 4 year old child/grandchild/neighbour/Malemute could do a better job of creating a standards compliant ebook.

Regards,
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:47 AM   #220
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I've finally hit a couple of the more commonly reported bugs here (which I previously hadn't). Namely the bold-instead-of-italics bug and the returning-to-the-nearest-page-rather-than-paragraph bug. Actually I'm inclined to believe there's a more general problem about recording positions to the nearest page because I also did a search and jumped to one of the results only to find I was about 3 screens behind the actual occurrence of the search text.

I'd previously tested with kepubs and side-loaded epubs. This was also a an epub but significantly perhaps it was originally a mobi, converted via calibre. The previous epubs I tested started life as epubs. This may account for a difference. When I get the time I'll try to dig more deeply into the differences and see if I can narrow down the problem.

That won't be until after Christmas now.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:28 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx View Post
David did you only look at the code, or were you able to download the book and replicate the issue?

Also, the second book, the non-fiction, has issues with trying to get the notes to function so that they actually take you to the note at the back of the book and then back again to the reading point.

Also the annotations and highlighting, were saving and then disappearing.
I was only looking at the values for the reading position and bookmark in the database. The check I wanted to do was to see if the two values were the same. I wanted to know if the problem was in the setting the value or using it.

As to checking if it works, I don't have the book or a source for it to test with.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:08 AM   #222
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:00 PM   #223
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Sounds if if it keeps trying to update the firmware and failing. Maybe a factory reset to square one and retry from that.
Yup, that seemed to do the trick. Now I just have to load everything back on again.

*sigh*

Thanks for the help.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:19 PM   #224
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I've found quite a few books where footnotes (if that is what you are referring to) are not properly setup. The footnote forward link should point to the footnote while the footnote should have a reverse link back to the footnote forward link location. I've seen books where the forward link simply points to the start of the appendix where the footnotes are stored with no reverse link defined, books where the forward and reverse links are static links which no longer work after changes were made unless you feel up to locating and manually editing them and the ones where the footnote markers have no links though they will be underlined to make them look like a link.

If the ebook is in epub format and not DRMed, you can use Sigil to examine the links. Though I have to warn you that looking at the source for many ebooks may be hard on your stomach. Very often, the first thought that comes to mind is that your 4 year old child/grandchild/neighbour/Malemute could do a better job of creating a standards compliant ebook.

Regards,
David
Hi David

I refer to the super text note numbers that are part of the text in the body of the material.

I take your point re bottom of the page reference notes, but my non-fiction currently seem to favour the superscript style.

So I suppose we can gather that irrespective of the style of note, super text or bottom of the page, there is a link to and from problem irrespective of their highlighted or underscored appearance on the page (which normally means they are defined to work).

Yes Sigil is a way to go, though quite frankly I get around all this another way: I use my BB playbook to read these non-fictions and it is still the best overall ereader I have.

But the Playbook reader app does not highlight or annotate so I need to have my Sony reader at the same time and then I can do those things on that. The reason I don't use the Sony is because unless I'm reading outdoors, or under good overhead light, I require 1 or 2 reading lights.

I bought the Glo for 2 primary reasons: the built in light and the fact that it handled non-fiction.

Hmmmmmmphh ..... no it doesn't handle non-fiction!!

Last edited by Lynx-lynx; 12-23-2012 at 05:20 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:43 AM   #225
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Hi, Lynx-lynx

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Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx View Post
Hi David

I refer to the super text note numbers that are part of the text in the body of the material.

I take your point re bottom of the page reference notes, but my non-fiction currently seem to favour the superscript style.
No difference really. Either way of showing a link to a footnote will work if properly used -- and if you can hit that little link which is a bit difficult in most cases. Unfortunately, I've found several books where the text-decoration underline tag was used but there is no actual link defined. For instance in one book, <a class="urllink" href="../Text/footnote1.xhtml#footnote1" id="d1">*</a> is the forward link to a footnote while the reverse link is <a class="urllink" href="../Text/Chapter1.xhtml#d1">*</a> which works. Another book I have had an ebook creator who didn't bother with the work of creating the links. All you got was a number with a <span style="text-decoration:underline; color:blue"> tag and a </span> end tag wrapped around it.

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Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx View Post
So I suppose we can gather that irrespective of the style of note, super text or bottom of the page, there is a link to and from problem irrespective of their highlighted or underscored appearance on the page (which normally means they are defined to work).
Actually all the underline means in many cases is the the text decoration for the chunk of text was defined as underline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx View Post
Yes Sigil is a way to go, though quite frankly I get around all this another way: I use my BB playbook to read these non-fictions and it is still the best overall ereader I have.

But the Playbook reader app does not highlight or annotate so I need to have my Sony reader at the same time and then I can do those things on that. The reason I don't use the Sony is because unless I'm reading outdoors, or under good overhead light, I require 1 or 2 reading lights.

I bought the Glo for 2 primary reasons: the built in light and the fact that it handled non-fiction.

Hmmmmmmphh ..... no it doesn't handle non-fiction!!
Actually, it does handle compliant non-fiction -- I have most of my IBM, Microsoft, Cisco and VMWare documentation as epub documents. The problem is that all too many "epub" ebooks are very minimally standards compliant.
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