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Old 12-10-2012, 03:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
You seem to be arguing against something I haven't said. I'm not sure why this is addressed to me.
You were implying that it was unethical for them to keep the iPads and were setting bad examples by doing so. I was pointing out that if it is money OR goods that too much is given at the store then, after arguing and pointing out the error, the customer may keep the extra. Why waste time (more than a minute or so in a store) arguing?

They were TOLD to keep the iPads.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:50 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by mrscoach View Post
You were implying that it was unethical for them to keep the iPads and were setting bad examples by doing so. I was pointing out that if it is money OR goods that too much is given at the store then, after arguing and pointing out the error, the customer may keep the extra. Why waste time (more than a minute or so in a store) arguing?

They were TOLD to keep the iPads.
No, you have not understood me. If you care to scroll up, you will see I have explicitly approved of their conduct.

My comments have been directed to PatNY, who is claiming that customers should make no effort to rectify the mistake and that it is acceptable to benefit from errors worth thousands of dollars since they don't impact a company's bottom line, or because returning them would make no difference to the affected employees anyway. Or something like that. His reasoning not very easy to follow. Oh, and it's especially OK "in the case of iPads," whatever that means.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:01 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
My comments have been directed to PatNY, who is claiming that customers should make no effort to rectify the mistake and that it is acceptable to benefit from errors worth thousands of dollars since they don't impact a company's bottom line, or because returning them would make no difference to the affected employees anyway. Or something like that. His reasoning not very easy to follow. Oh, and it's especially OK "in the case of iPads," whatever that means.
LOL, I never ever said it's "especially OK "in the case of iPads" or anything even close to it. In fact I made it quite clear I would welcome just as much such an android gift! You need to read more carefully instead of repeatedly misstating things I have said.

And I never said customers should make "no effort to rectify" such a mistake. In the case where a job is at stake or the company would suffer financially, I actually said the opposite.

--Pat

Last edited by PatNY; 12-10-2012 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:04 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
No, you have not understood me. If you care to scroll up, you will see I have explicitly approved of their conduct.

My comments have been directed to PatNY, who is claiming that customers should make no effort to rectify the mistake and that it is acceptable to benefit from errors worth thousands of dollars since they don't impact a company's bottom line, or because returning them would make no difference to the affected employees anyway. Or something like that. His reasoning not very easy to follow. Oh, and it's especially OK "in the case of iPads," whatever that means.
No, PatNY did not say that it was ok to steal from the company: according to the article and comments made underneath it, the law is that if you are sent items that you didn't order, you can consider them a gift! You have no obligation to return them.
Bold mine

And then went on to say: It's up to each individual to assess the situation and do what they deem fit.

I don't see where PatNY implied that it's ok to steal from the company.

IMO if you make and effort to return the product and the company declines, why shouldn't you keep it?
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:07 PM   #20
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Then I apologize. There was no frame of reference as a response to PatNY, so I thought what I thought. I'm still not sure how you comment about keeping the change and being an example made your point, though.

edited to add: This was in response to holymadness.

Last edited by mrscoach; 12-10-2012 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Pookeysgirl View Post
No, PatNY did not say that it was ok to steal from the company: according to the article and comments made underneath it, the law is that if you are sent items that you didn't order, you can consider them a gift! You have no obligation to return them.
Bold mine
You understand, I hope, that this discussion hinges on what is legal vs. what is ethical. I am very capable of reading, no bolding required.
Quote:
And then went on to say: It's up to each individual to assess the situation and do what they deem fit.

I don't see where PatNY implied that it's ok to steal from the company.
The exact line you quoted is where PatNY implied that it's OK to steal from the company. Not in a legal sense, but in an ethical sense. You can read the analogy I provided above regarding incorrect change. It is stealing by any other name. In your quote you omitted PatNY's "" which rather neatly expressed his glee at the prospect of benefitting from something that wasn't rightly his.

His attempts to justify this dishonest behaviour are totally specious. He writes: "If the person returns the 4 iPads would that be likely to change the company's bottom line significantly?"

All of a sudden significance enters into it; PatNY is claiming there is acceptable threshold for stealing. Below a certain percentage, stealing is OK. Above, less OK. What sort of basis for a moral system is this? If you find a wallet in the street, are you less obligated to turn it in if the owner is wealthy than if the owner is poor? Is that what you teach your children?

He then writes: "If the person returns the 4 iPads would that be likely to change someone's job if it was in jeopardy?"

He acknowledges that an employee could potentially be fired for the error, but that it's not worth the effort to try to prevent this because Best Buy is so badly organized that it wouldn't make any difference. I don't know about you, but that smells like a crock to me.

Lastly, there is this bizarre comment: "A consumer keeping an item sent to them is not breaking the law. Apples and oranges. Especially in the case of the iPads!"

As I read it, he is saying it is especially acceptable to keep mistakenly sent merchandise if said merchandise is an iPad. Lord knows why that should be.
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IMO if you make and effort to return the product and the company declines, why shouldn't you keep it?
Why is this still being brought up? No one has disputed this.

The customers tried to alert BB about the error. BB got some free publicity by letting them keep the extra items. Win-win.

Last edited by holymadness; 12-10-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:42 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
All of a sudden significance enters into it; PatNY is claiming there is acceptable threshold for stealing. Below a certain percentage, stealing is OK. Above, less OK. What sort of basis for a moral system is this? If you find a wallet in the street, are you less obligated to turn it in if the owner is wealthy than if the owner is poor? Is that what you teach your children?
The problem is that you are incorrectly trying to define my threshold and failing badly. You are misstating my position on things which I have never explicitly said.

As for a found wallet, if it belonged to Donald Trump, I'd take the money out and then send the wallet back to him anonymously with the rest of the contents intact.

--Pat
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:47 PM   #23
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The problem is that you are incorrectly trying to define my threshold and failing badly. You are misstating my position on things which I have never explicitly said.

As for a found wallet, if it belonged to Donald Trump, I'd take the money out and then send the wallet back to him anonymously with the rest of the contents intact.

--Pat
After you split the goods with me first!
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:48 PM   #24
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Also would depend on where you are. In my neck of the woods (Pennsylvania), we have a crimes code section titled "Theft of Property Lost, Mislaid or Delivered by Mistake". If you (the recipient) know it was a mistake, and you fail to return it, you are committing a crime.

Of course, if you contact the company and they tell you, "keep them", you're in the clear. But you are committing a crime if you just keep quiet and hope no one notices.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:52 PM   #25
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After you split the goods with me first!
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:09 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post

Lastly, there is this bizarre comment: "A consumer keeping an item sent to them is not breaking the law. Apples and oranges. Especially in the case of the iPads!"

As I read it, he is saying it is especially acceptable to keep mistakenly sent merchandise if said merchandise is an iPad. Lord knows why that should be.
Well, you read it wrong. That explains it. But instead of asking for clarification, you fill in the blanks. Moreover, after you first mistakenly stated my opinion on this, I specifically clarified it. Yet, you continued to misstate my opinion, even after my clarification.

FYI, what I meant by my original statement is that the situation with the iPads in this particular case was "apples and oranges" compared to the situation brought up by ucfgrad93 where Enron intentionally screwed over millions of people including its own employees.

--Pat
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:14 AM   #27
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:32 AM   #28
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Also would depend on where you are. In my neck of the woods (Pennsylvania), we have a crimes code section titled "Theft of Property Lost, Mislaid or Delivered by Mistake". If you (the recipient) know it was a mistake, and you fail to return it, you are committing a crime.

Of course, if you contact the company and they tell you, "keep them", you're in the clear. But you are committing a crime if you just keep quiet and hope no one notices.

I think 'delivered by mistake' applies to items delivered to the wrong address, not items mailed to the proper address mistakenly.

It's Federal Law that anything sent through the mail that the recipient did not order is considered a gift and the sender cannot demand payment for it. This is to prevent scams.

I do think one has a moral duty to try to return the said items, but by Federal Law one does not have to nor can one be compelled to pay for them.

So be very careful what you mail.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:46 AM   #29
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I recently heard of a similar problem with another company. A customer used his protection plan to get a replacement device, and it was sent to the wrong place. They instead sent him another one. A few days later both units showed up. He tried to contact them and report the error, and they instead sent him another one, apparently not getting the message. By the time I heard about it he had four devices in his possession and they were simply unable to understand what was happening.

Would he be in the wrong to keep all those after trying multiple times to give them back? Nope.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:17 AM   #30
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I can recall quite a few instances when various companies made mistakes in my favor and told me to keep the extra or wrong item. Generally it has been for things that cost under $50; they say it's just not worth the hassle of a return. I'm surprised that a company wouldn't think the return of four extra iPads would be worthwhile, though.
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