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Old 12-06-2012, 02:25 PM   #46
Sil_liS
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Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
It does seem to open an even worse possibility, however. The article refers to instances where a threat was made to remove the *book* from Amazon if violating reviews continue to be made. Note that this means the book is removed solely due to the actions of people other than the author. If that's really the case a malicious author has a better option than simply down-rating their rival - they can get the book removed altogether.
That is not what the article said:
Quote:
When one of the fans queried this, on the basis that they had absolutely no relationship or financial interest in the book, Gagnon says Amazon threatened to remove her book from the site completely if the fan contacted them again about it.
Amazon will remove the book if fans ask about the removal of reviews.

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Originally Posted by Andrew H. View Post
True enough. But the fact that you can't eliminate all possible conflicts of interest isn't a reason not to eliminate some forms.
Then eliminate the biggest conflict: paid reviews.

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Originally Posted by Andrew H. View Post
The real problem isn't Umberto Eco writing a review on Amazon (assuming he would do such a thing). The real problem is when you look at a self-published book and find that it has 10 5-star reviews. You then check out the reviewers and find that each of them is a self published author, and each of their books has a positive review by the person who wrote the book you originally looked at. This is a real problem with the credibility of Amazon's reviewing process, and Amazon should stop it. Most customers want to read independent reviews, not reviews written by other authors in the hopes of getting reviews of their own books. That just looks like marketing.
But isn't this just because a bigger percentage of the readers of a self-published book are self-published authors compared to traditionally published books? And it might also be possible that non-author readers of self-published books are less likely to leave reviews.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Sil_liS View Post
Then eliminate the biggest conflict: paid reviews.
They did that some time ago, I seem to remember. The problem is identifying which ones are paid.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:11 PM   #48
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They did that some time ago, I seem to remember. The problem is identifying which ones are paid.
They would have a hard time identifying which author reviews are dishonest as well and their solution is to remove author reviews.

Authors: Amazon can't tell which reviews, if any are dishonest so they remove all.
Fans: Amazon decides to remove their reviews, and when questioned about the decision threaten to remove the book.
Paid reviewers: Amazon can't tell which reviews have been paid for, but know that some definitely were, so they decide to remove none.

Amazon decision benefits paid reviewers, because at this point only the reviews written by paid reviewers are safe.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:40 PM   #49
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There is only ONE reason Amazon removes author reviews.

Authors are the only ones whose accounts be tracked. Fake accounts by authors can still get you some weasel reviews. Indeed, paid reviews can still weasel in under fake names.

Also notice, Amazon exhibits a double standard for its OWN books:
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/1...endly-reviews/

The lesson here is, authors squealed about paid reviews because they were jealous of John Locke, Amazon was forced to react to the bad PR, and Amazon swung the stick at the only thing that could really be cleaned up--author reviews. Sweetly ironic.

This isn't a move to address the rampant review problem, it was designed purely to address the PR problem. If Amazon truly wanted legitimacy, it would limit reviews solely to verified purchasers who use their real names. But Amazon's goal isn't legitimacy--they don't care if someone is writing fake reviews or not (see the NYT piece as evidence--it's okay to write reviews of stuff you haven't even seen, read, or bought), they just want people on their site buying stuff. Authors just happen to be the most disposable and easily replaceable folks they could target.

Last edited by Scott Nicholson; 12-06-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:09 PM   #50
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I think using only "verified purchasers" is problematic because if one is willing to pay people to review your book, one is presumably willing to chip in another $0.99-2.99 to said shill to buy the book first.

And now that we know that Amazon will remove a book if people complain about removed books...well, the literary equivalent of 4chan could have a field day:

Pick an author you don't like*. Buy book. Post a review so obviously insincere that Amazon will no doubt remove it. Complain to Amazon. Get book removed.

* Or pay your friends to go after a competing author.

Rinse, repeat as desired.

Yap about it all over the Internet. Be sure to paint Amazon as the big/bad evil censor, especially since they are arbitrarily determining who is an illegitimate reviewer and who isn't in a very non-transparent way.

And ultimately, I have very little doubt that Amazon is going after small indie authors on this -- I have very little doubt that some mainstream publishers are using roundabout methods to get paid glowing reviews posted -- considering the tailspin and fear NY publishers are going through now, I have little doubt that *some* people in the industry would resort to this if they thought they could get away with it.

I think Amazon would have been better off letting the paid reviews stand and let the tidal wave of "this is crap" reviews drown out the paid shills.

Last edited by BillSmithBooks; 12-06-2012 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:41 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sil_liS View Post
That is not what the article said:
Yes it is:

Quote:
We do not allow reviews on behalf of a person or company with a financial interest in the product or a directly competing product. This includes authors, artists, publishers, manufacturers, or third-party merchants selling the product. As a result, we’ve removed your reviews for this title. Any further violations of our posted Guidelines may result in the removal of this item from our website.
In any case, the threat you highlight ("Amazon will remove the book if fans ask about the removal of reviews.") still involves removing an author's book due to the actions of others unconnected with the author, which seems exploitable by malicious rivals.

/JB
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:33 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
Yes it is:
But neither the author, nor the fan submitted another review. The threat came as a result of asking about the removal. And "Any further violations of our posted Guidelines" doesn't exactly limit things to review writing.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:51 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Sil_liS View Post
But neither the author, nor the fan submitted another review.
That's irrelevant - the threat was still made.

Quote:
The threat came as a result of asking about the removal. And "Any further violations of our posted Guidelines" doesn't exactly limit things to review writing.
I never said the threat was limited to posting reviews, rather that it included it. Posting violating reviews violates the guidelines, and violating the guideline can result in the book being removed. Thus posting violatin reviews can result in the book being removed, which is what I said.

As the article later says:

Quote:
Rohrbacher’s book might be removed if Amazon didn’t like the look of reviews left by others.
/JB
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:28 AM   #54
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actually i write and edit site reviews for part of my living, and i've written a number of amazon user reviews for products from books and guitars to apple chips and electronics. none of those reviews were paid - they were things i owned that i wanted to share about. and sometimes i chuckle to myself as i write reviews for free after spending hours writing them for money

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Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
My heart goes out to the real victims, here: the tens (if not hundreds) of readers who were savagely influenced into purchasing books—books they otherwise might have passed over—by disingenuous reviews. Oh the humanity!
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And which ones are those?
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:36 AM   #55
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actually i write and edit site reviews for part of my living, and i've written a number of amazon user reviews for products from books and guitars to apple chips and electronics. none of those reviews were paid - they were things i owned that i wanted to share about. and sometimes i chuckle to myself as i write reviews for free after spending hours writing them for money
I'm curious - how does writing reviews for money actually work? Surely it's next to impossible to write an unbiased review of a product if you're being paid by the product manufacturer or retailer to write that review, isn't it?
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:32 AM   #56
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Rather than remove such reviews, I would prefer see an information/disclosure type system. Amazon could, in theory, place a script on their webite saying something like "this Author 'A' has reviewd x number of books from Author 'B' " and Author 'B' has, in return, reviewed Author 'A' y number of times. It could also encourage explanations of such reviews. There are authors whose work in the same field, (e.g. the sciences) will almost guarantee that, at some point, they will want to review each other's books. Maybe Amazon could institue a system that would only allow these reviews if an explanation and disclamer were attached? Readers could complain if the explanations weren't satisfactory and, if a certain complaint threshold is reached, then the star rating could be removed until reviewed by Amazon.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:23 PM   #57
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I'm curious - how does writing reviews for money actually work? Surely it's next to impossible to write an unbiased review of a product if you're being paid by the product manufacturer or retailer to write that review, isn't it?
Basschick sounds like she might be a journalist/musician who's paid to review third-party kit, which is something I've done as well. The real conflict is not between the writer and the company but rather the publisher and frequent advertisers (which often include the companies whose equipment is being reviewed).

Then, too, companies are more inclined to keep sending you kit if you continue to give them push quotes. Social historian Mark Dery, who used to write for Keyboard Magazine, has had amusing things to say about that.

Still, gear confecters can overstep the line drastically on occasion (esp. small obsessive companies, in my experience), but you've always got your editor to right them if they refuse to listen to you.

I once had the head of an amp company try to get me to withdraw a positive review because he didn't like my comparison of a previous iteration of the same model with his latest. I pointed out that each had its strengths, but that apparently wasn't good enough. He expected me to say the latest model was superior in every way because, in his mind, it was, and anyone else who thought otherwise was a fool.

Needless to bleat, the review was published as is. I didn't get any more breathless emails asking me to try out his kit after that.

So to answer your question, I don't think a paid review is necessarily more biased than anyone else's.

For me, the question is not which kind of reviewer or scenario is less ethical -- that's a would-be purist's revolving door -- but rather how reliable the person is who's writing the review. To know that, you have to look at their other reviews and decide for yourself.

Also: An uninformative review is often far less useful than one which is comprehensive but biased. You can disagree with a biased review, but if it happens to be informative, you'll at least know more about the purchase you're considering.

Last edited by Prestidigitweeze; 12-11-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:33 PM   #58
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Some of the least useful reviews I've read on Amazon have been Vine reviews. Not all of them, but you can tell when someone only got the product because they could get it free and only reviewed it so they could get more free stuff in the future. Despite their ignorance of the category and lack of a need or desire for the product (someone who only shaves with blades reviewing an electric razor, for example), these reviews are often top ranked just because they showed up early and weren't illiterate, crowding down better reviews below that provide more useful information towards people actually trying to decide between that razor and others like it.

Your reviews are only going to be as good as your community, and Amazon's community is mixed at best. There's probably nothing they can do to fix that. Any rules you make will be sidestepped by those determined to sidestep it, and will block honest and good reviewers who won't bother trying to clear your hurdles. The quality of their reviews will not improve as a result of this effort, however well-intended it is, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were a slight net decrease in quality.

I actually don't buy a lot of PC stuff these days, but when I did, Newegg's reviews were pitch perfect. Even when I wasn't buying from newegg, I always checked their reviews. Their community didn't just write useful reviews, they were very good about getting the most useful reviews to the top of the list. You'd be very hard-pressed to try to replicate their community building success, and if you did, it'd be the same way they did -- blind frakking luck. Amazon's attempts to regulate the area ignore the truth, it's not about the rules, it's about the people. Regs won't deter the bad actors but they probably will discourage the good ones.
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Old 12-25-2012, 08:10 AM   #59
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Given the often-seen "I'll give you a positive review if you give me one" mutual admiration circles that one not infrequently encounters among authors, bravo Amazon. Absolutely the right thing to do.
Fixed your mistake for you Harry.
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Old 12-25-2012, 08:27 AM   #60
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Well, that was confusing....
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