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Old 02-07-2013, 11:58 AM   #16
JSWolf
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The reason the devs continue to try is because they are still trying to get it right. They would not have to try if they actually knew what they were doing. The Kobo hardware is not the problem. But the firmware leaves a lot to be desired and is rather buggy. I was tempted to get a Kobo Glo until I remembered about the firmware.

I just want a device that works. I don't want one I have to install firmware after firmware (and even unofficial firmware) in hopes that thing get fixed. It seems for everything that gets fixed, something else breaks. I am surprised anyone actually buys a Kobo.

When I found out about the embedded font bug that Kobo refuses to fix, I could not (in good conscience) recommend a Kobo to anyone and the bug is still not fixed and thus, I would suggest everyone stay the hell away from Kobo Readers.

As for #3. If you did buy a T2, it would work and long paragraphs would not be an issue.
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Old 02-09-2013, 03:59 PM   #17
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The KT is not perfect, far from it, but it works most of the time and the epub I was working with is really an exception.

JSWolf I own the PRS-T1 and as I have said (#10) long paragraphs do not pose any problems with it.

By the way in my opinion the PRS-T2 is a step backwards compared to the T1, which is why I bought the latter, and between the t2 and the Glo, I'd certainly choose the Glo ... despite the problems with firmwares which I admit are very annoying and hard to understand from a not so small company.

Anyway, my purpose was genuinely to find solutions regarding long paragraphs (how to deal with it in a strategic point of view!), not raised a comparison between Kobo and Sony!

Have a nice day JSWolf.
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:31 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Arios View Post
The KT is not perfect, far from it, but it works most of the time and the epub I was working with is really an exception.

JSWolf I own the PRS-T1 and as I have said (#10) long paragraphs do not pose any problems with it.

By the way in my opinion the PRS-T2 is a step backwards compared to the T1, which is why I bought the latter, and between the t2 and the Glo, I'd certainly choose the Glo ... despite the problems with firmwares which I admit are very annoying and hard to understand from a not so small company.

Anyway, my purpose was genuinely to find solutions regarding long paragraphs (how to deal with it in a strategic point of view!), not raised a comparison between Kobo and Sony!

Have a nice day JSWolf.
It was not meant to be a comparison of Kobo and Sony. Sony was just an example. It could be Kobo and Onyx Boox or B&N or even Amazon. It was to say that other readers work where Kobo is buggy.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:53 PM   #19
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To vampiregrave

Hi vampiregrave

If you are still reading this thread I found a "generic" solution and a more specific one that might suit you!

These was tested with the KT (firmware ver. 2.3.1).

1) The easiest thing to do.

Edit your epub with Sigil and add to the paragraph class <p> orphans: 0;
widows: 0. It should looks something like (...; = the specific codes of your own epub):

Code:
p {
    ...;
    orphans: 0;
    widows: 0;
}
Now here is the trick. Rename your file like this: name_of_my_epub.kepub.epub. Voilà! It works perfectly on the KT with my extravagant epub. The only drawback, of course, is that there are widows and orphans, but this is quite normal, is it not?

2) If you have few long paragraphs in your epub, you could instead just create a <div> in the CSS for them this way:

Code:
.lpara {
    orphans: 0;
    widows: 0;
}
and insert the div (<div class="lpara">) at the beginning of the long paragaph. Don't forget to put a </div> at the end of these paragraphs and to remove "orphans: 0; widows: 0;" from the normal paragraph.

But if the Glo works as the KT, you should be in business with the first solution.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:55 PM   #20
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Even better...

Add the widows and orphans to the body style. That way you can turn them off for the entire ePub. It just looks better when most pages are the same number of lines.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:55 AM   #21
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Actually I don't agree with you John. In real printing the lines are also not equal on each page. Widows and orphans have a real value with regards to the easiness of reading.

I find the solution of Arios with a special clause for long paragraphs actually quite elegant. I would not put it in a <div> though, but just say <p class="lpara">. In that case it would inherit everything from the <p> class, except for the things mentioned in the lpara class.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:49 AM   #22
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I'm still following the topic I'll try your suggestions (beginning with the first; the eBook i'm working on has plenty of long paragraphs and it would take some time to indentify and test them all by adding a new class to them). Still, it is a shame that i have to create a different file specifically for Kobo users, in order to solve an issue that shouldn't happen in the first place.

Edit: And, of course, thanks for the help.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxaris View Post
Actually I don't agree with you John. In real printing the lines are also not equal on each page. Widows and orphans have a real value with regards to the easiness of reading.

I find the solution of Arios with a special clause for long paragraphs actually quite elegant. I would not put it in a <div> though, but just say <p class="lpara">. In that case it would inherit everything from the <p> class, except for the things mentioned in the lpara class.
There's just not enough screen real estate to waste with widows & orphans. Besides, I prefer no widows and orphans. I'm not bothered at all that it's not typographically correct.

In a pBook, things can be adjusted better so they don't look so noticeable. On a 6" eInk screen, widows and orphans are more noticeable and more annoying.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
There's just not enough screen real estate to waste with widows & orphans. Besides, I prefer no widows and orphans. I'm not bothered at all that it's not typographically correct.
I just wanted to point (mainly for those that might read this) that you are against widows and orphans avoidance, i.e., you don't mind the occasional widow/orphan and you find the "cure" is worse than the issue.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:30 PM   #25
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Tried the first workaround and while it did solve the issue, it broke several classes (mainly alignment classes and embedded fonts).
I'm really wondering if it's worth all the trouble of creating a separate version, fix the formatting, just to prevent arbitrary breaks that happen only with Kobo's software...

Edit: Btw, adding the widow/orphan control to <body> or <p> doesn't work. Just tested it.

Last edited by vampiregrave; 02-11-2013 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:25 PM   #26
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You are welcome vampiregrave,

Toxaris, thanks for your kind words. If there is any benefits with the <div> your suggestion is the better one.

JSWolf I totally agree with you! I don't like widows and orphans as well and my epub is evidently readable with a computer or a tablet.

But either I must accept this tradeoff, either I chose to don't use it (as it is primarily) on my eReader. Personally, I can easily live with it and as I don't have any other solutions...

I also tested an epub named "maldoror.kepub.epub" with the Sony, and it works without a hitch.

By the way, I examined the epub with the KT and the TR-1 and there are not so much widows/orphans or wasted space; at least not enough to call mom at home.

Actually, here is where rely the most intriguing thing with long paragraphs for me: according to davidfor there is a bug with the Kobo and long paragraphs (see post #11), but this bug is not apparent, in my case at least, when using the .kepub extension and "widows and orphans to 0 in css". Very strange!

Do we have double standards here?

Anyway, it's fascinating to discover that such small devices can deal with the humoristic and satirical intentions of a eccentric author of the XIXth, even if this is "distorted" with some widows and orphans.

Update: Too bad vampiregrave! I have no embedded fonts in my epub, not even a font family as the eReader can use it's default one. As the "epub.kepub" works with the Sony and you have to change only few parameters in the CSS, you do not have necessarily to create separate version. Of course, it is up to you to see if the game is worth the candle. By the way, is your epub passes correctly epubcheck or FlightCrew for example?
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:44 AM   #27
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Quote:
By the way, is your epub passes correctly epubcheck or FlightCrew for example?
Yes. Basically i'm working on a project similar to Project Gutenberg, but dedicated to portuguese literature. After editing the text, i usually read the entire eBook in order to find any mistakes that i might have missed, and it also allows me to notice any bugs or formatting errors. Besides this annoying issue, everything else works just fine
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:42 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arios View Post
I also tested an epub named "maldoror.kepub.epub" with the Sony, and it works without a hitch.

By the way, I examined the epub with the KT and the TR-1 and there are not so much widows/orphans or wasted space; at least not enough to call mom at home.

Actually, here is where rely the most intriguing thing with long paragraphs for me: according to davidfor there is a bug with the Kobo and long paragraphs (see post #11), but this bug is not apparent, in my case at least, when using the .kepub extension and "widows and orphans to 0 in css". Very strange!

Do we have double standards here?

Anyway, it's fascinating to discover that such small devices can deal with the humoristic and satirical intentions of a eccentric author of the XIXth, even if this is "distorted" with some widows and orphans.

Update: Too bad vampiregrave! I have no embedded fonts in my epub, not even a font family as the eReader can use it's default one. As the "epub.kepub" works with the Sony and you have to change only few parameters in the CSS, you do not have necessarily to create separate version. Of course, it is up to you to see if the game is worth the candle. By the way, is your epub passes correctly epubcheck or FlightCrew for example?
A "kepub" is a "Kobo ePub". It is the format that Kobo uses in their shop for direct download to their devices and apps. It is basically an ePub but with some extra formatting. The main thing you will notice is that it has spans around each sentence with a Kobo specific class and a sequential id. The ids are used on the device for bookmarking. There is also some javascript. Kobo also use a different DRM scheme that to the best of my knowledge hasn't been cracked.

The other important difference is that the Kobo devices use different renderers for epubs and kepubs. For epubs it is ADE, for kepubs it is Access or something like that. Kobo also support syncing the reading status and bookmarks for purchased kepubs to other Kobo devices and apps.

Changing the extension to ".kepub.epub" is a trick to get the devices to treat an epub as a kepub. It gets loaded on the device as an kepub and then is read with the kepub renderer. But nothing about it is synced to the server. Kobo do not officially support doing this and the only time I have seen them refer to it, they advised against it. Also, without the spans and ids, the bookmarks don't work. But, there are some scripts and a calibre driver that add the spans to a an epub to fix these problems./

As you found, there are differences between the two renderers. As ADE is used for epubs, it has the known errors. And that is why I questioned whether it is a Kobo specific bug or more general ADE issue. The kepub renderer uses WebKit. So, you get all the features and bugs of that. It also supports ePub 3, RTL languages and Japanese.

I'm curious about where you got "maldoror.kepub.epub". Kobo's kepubs usually have no extension and what looks like GUID for the name. I haven't seen them anywhere else.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:08 PM   #29
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@ vampiergrave

I'm not familiar since a long time with epub, but in my own experience 2, perhaps 3 of them showed very long paragraphs.

Can I repeat my previous questions (post # 15)? Regarding to your long paragraphs: have you many of them? How long are they? How many epub with very long paragraphs do you have in your stable?

Just curious!

If you created yourself the long paragraphs, would it not be better to make them shorter? If you don't, we are in the same boat and the "possible" solutions seem to be here.

BTW, this is not really surprising that an unusual problem causes specific effects. Consequently Kobo in general and the Glo in particular are not the only culprits here: your very long paragraphs also play a role. Moreover, with widows and orphans set to 0 in the CSS and, for the KT with the kepub extension, things are nice for me. Finally, the Sony PRS-T1 doesn't work correctly without 0 for w/o either: there is a lot of wasted space without this setting. But as I said, the codes in my epub are really simple as well as my CSS, with no fonts embedded, etc.

@ davidfor

Thanks David for all these details about kepub.

Quote:
I'm curious about where you got "maldoror.kepub.epub". Kobo's kepubs usually have no extension and what looks like GUID for the name. I haven't seen them anywhere else.
Ok, I was not clear. I just created it as an epub and renamed it as a kepub to see if it's going to work with the TR-1. In other words, this kepub is not coming from Kobo but from wikisource through me. Indeed, with the KT my "maldoror.kepub.epub" worked so well that I wanted to test it with the Sony. Of course, "she" was unable to take advantage to this "kobotisation"!

Last edited by Arios; 02-13-2013 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:30 PM   #30
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Arios, can you please post a sample ePub with a long paragraph so I can try it on the T1 and see what I get? Thanks.
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